BBO Discussion Forums: Idea - Yarborough 1NT Forcing In Strong Club System - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Idea - Yarborough 1NT Forcing In Strong Club System

#1 User is offline   pbleighton 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,153
  • Joined: 2003-February-28

Posted 2003-July-24, 12:07

This is probably off the wall, but...

Misho wrote about bluffs in Precision (11-15 hcp openers):
"1NT response with near 0 hcp in favorite vul. I will pass any response, jump one will be with good distribution"

Would it be feasible to SYSTEMATICALLY respond 1NT with as little as 0 hcp NV/Fav Vul, as long as you have 3 card support. If opener rebids 2 of the major, pass. If he bids 2m or 2H, prefer to the first bid suit.

The partnership agreement would have to be that a preference to 2M would either be passed, or raised to 3M with a max and a good 6 card suit.

In the event of a Precision-specific reverse or jump shift, showing a max and a 5+ card side suit, a preference to 3M would have to be a sign off.

1) What do you think of this, as is or with modifications?
2) If this is no good, is there another way to use the limited openings to be more aggressive? Ben (Inquiry) wrote in another thread (Bergen) of using a raise to 2 as showing 0-6 hcp and 3 trumps, and a raise to 3 0-6 and 4 trumps. This would actually be better preemptively. I was unclear as to how 7-10 hcp with 3 card support would be shown, unless it was mixed in the with preference to 2M after 1NT, which can also be 2 cards.

Any thoughts to help me as I stumble along? ;D

Peter
0

#2 User is offline   luis 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,143
  • Joined: 2003-May-02
  • Location:Buenos Aires, Argentina

Posted 2003-July-24, 12:23

The problem with this approach is that you completely lose the 1nt contract, playing precision a normal 6-10 or 7-10 1NT bid is very useful since pd can pass 1nt or bid on with a suitable hand. If 1nt can be 0HCP it becomes "forcing" so you are losing the 1NT contract.
Sometimes even after a limited opening showing 11-15 hcp pd can make a game try if you have 7-10 HCP, if your 1NT bid can be 0 pd won't be able to judge what to do when he has a good hand, you will be a candidate to miss a good game or overbid to 3x in a hand that you wuld have passed 1M.
The legend of the black octogon.
0

#3 User is offline   pbleighton 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,153
  • Joined: 2003-February-28

Posted 2003-July-24, 12:31

Another direction for the thread!

Luis writes:
"The problem with this approach is that you completely lose the 1nt contract, playing precision a normal 6-10 or 7-10 1NT bid is very useful since pd can pass 1nt or bid on with a suitable hand. "

You then feel that 2/1 with 1NT forcing is inferior to Standard (2/1 = inv+, 1NT = natural) when playing Precision?

I have wondered about this, because opening most 11 hcp hands throws a lot into the 1NT bucket. Do you think that there is another reason to prefer Standard to 2/1 when playing Precision, or do you just feel generally that the loss of the 1NT natural bid is a good reason not to play 2/1?

Peter
0

#4 User is offline   inquiry 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 14,564
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amelia Island, FL
  • Interests:Bridge, what else?

Posted 2003-July-24, 13:46

Hi. I think you might want to rethink this strategy. I certainly don't mind bidding with 0 hcp as long as 1) I have law protection (fit with partner), and 2) partner will understand that I can be and often will be this weak.

This is one reason the 1H-3H jump raise on dirt work with Bergen... partner knows you will not have as many as 8 points... so you are limited to 0-7 kind of hands.

What you are proposing, moving the 0 point raises, into the 1NT structure is flawed for two reasons. The first, is that contrary to opinion, forcing 1NT responses really don't shut the opponents out. You give them too much room to describe their hands. And if you systemically play this as having as few as 0 hcp with a systemic "catch" for the light bid, it is of course alertable. Much better to strike early and as high as you dare go as soon as possible.

Nor the occassional Pscyh of 1NT or anyother bid on 0 hcp is completely fine, as long as you don'tmake a habit of it so your partner can catch it but your opponent's can not.

If you want to raise aggressely, you need to sacrafice something. One way is to play all bids from 1NT upto one minus your major as transfers (as if they doubled). So that ...for instance...

1H 2D (transfer to 2H) is a sound raise to 2H

while

1H 2H (is a weak raise).

The disadvantage is you miss opener's second suit. Another option is to keep 1NT forcing, but to make 2C as a potentially artificial bid. It is either 2-over-1 game force with clubs, or shows a sound raise to 2H or 2S. Opener is not allowed to bid pass his major unless he would do so opposite a sound raise. So that...

1H 2C
2H Pass Opener was willing to pass 2H raise, which is what the 2C bidder had...

1H 2C (opener would have made a game try over 2H
2S 4H (and responder had a normal 2H raise).

1H 2H (responder has weak 3 card heart support
Pass

etc. Playing precision, I use 2NT as limit raise or better, single raise sound, and bid 1NT and pull to 2 of the major with any thing less than a sound raise. I ahven't been raising on 0 hcp without 4S, maybe I should change.

ben
--Ben--

#5 User is offline   hrothgar 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 15,175
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Natick, MA
  • Interests:Travel
    Cooking
    Brewing
    Hiking

Posted 2003-July-24, 14:04

Folks:

You are talking about different points:

Misho's comment about respoding 1NT holding a balanced 0 count was an example of a specific psyche that he advocates opposite a limited opening bid. He is advocating a mixed strategy.

For example, partner has opened a Precision 1S, you hold:

872
874
8763
542

80% of the time you pass, 20% of the time you bid 1NT

You all seemed to be talking about "pure" strategies. Should a player bid 1NT 100% of the time. Very different beasts.

BTW, for what is worth I've never really liked the whole notion of a Psyche. I think that the more formal differentiation between mixed and pure strategies is a better way to understand the true dynamics of the decision making process.
Alderaan delenda est
0

#6 User is offline   inquiry 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 14,564
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amelia Island, FL
  • Interests:Bridge, what else?

Posted 2003-July-24, 14:11

No, I think you missed the point. We are addressing a specific issue... bidding more aggressively after precison opening bids... my name was drawn in along with the idea that 1H-3H could be as few as 0 points. Peter wanted to incorporate a systemic 0 point bid into his 1NT not as a pych, but as a part of his system. So all of us were talking about the systemic nature of raising with 0 points and a fit either direclty or through some artifice like 1NT then raise.

I even added the bit that the occassional psych of 1NT or any other bid with 0 hcp is fine.... as long as... etc. misho's name was just brought forward by Peter as a way to introduce his yarbourough concept using 1NT as part of his new structure he was proposing.

Ben
--Ben--

#7 User is offline   pbleighton 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,153
  • Joined: 2003-February-28

Posted 2003-July-24, 14:21

Ben is right - I am proposing a systematic response with 0 hcp - I mentioned Misho's psyche idea because that's what triggered mine. A couple of points:
1) My understanding is that non-game-forcing transfer responses over suit bids aren't GCC legal. Is this correct? I want to play this at my club as well as BBO.
2) Ben - are the transfer responses how you use 2 level raises as 0-6, or do you have another method?

Peter
0

#8 User is offline   inquiry 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 14,564
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amelia Island, FL
  • Interests:Bridge, what else?

Posted 2003-July-24, 14:33

I am not sure about the transfer idea as far as being legal. I have never checked. I do play....

1H x 2C--> transfers to 2D
1H x 1NT --> transfers to 2C
1H x 2D --> sound raise to 2H
1H x 2H --> preemptive raise to 2H.

I think over the double, this is legal, it probably is not legal without the double. 2C as sort of an a possible immediate drury and direct raises as preemptive however is probably legal. Don't konw about two way 2C... as either drury or a game forcing club suit.

Ben
--Ben--

#9 User is offline   hrothgar 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 15,175
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Natick, MA
  • Interests:Travel
    Cooking
    Brewing
    Hiking

Posted 2003-July-24, 15:07

Sorry, I should have looked more closely at the thread before posting earlier.

Personally, I think that allowing systemic responses in a pure space on zero HCP is highly problematic unless the 1NT response denies values for game even opposite a maximum strength 1M opening.

A simple exercise in conditional probabilities [easiesr yet a Monte Carlo simulation] will quickly demonstrate the problem. The probability density function defining the 1S opener's hand strength is conditional on responder's strength. The weaker that responder is, the more likely it is than opener holds a moose. In short, if you hold a zero count, its much more likely that opener is going to go looking for game hoping that you have a suitable maximum.

This is actually an example where the light Precision opening style is a negative. A "maximum" strength Precision 1M opening normaly shows a good 14 count or so.
In contrast, a "good" opening playing standard is going to be about 3 points stronger, and is much further out on the tail end of the HCP distributions. This means that that the inverse correlation between opener's hand strength and responder's hand strength is much stronger for the Precision 1M opening than the "standard" 1M opening. You'll get burnt more often.

As I mentioned originally, this problem can be solved by limiting the maximum strength of the 1NT response such that opener can't hold game inviational values, however, this introduces a litney of other complications. Furthermore, there are advantages to forcing responder to hold "something" for his bid. Never underestimate the value of low level penalty doubles. Their one of the truly nice features of limited opening systems.
Alderaan delenda est
0

Share this topic:


Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users