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Need some input.

#1 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2018-June-13, 06:24

In our fantunes-like methods, where 1x is unlimited, we have the following sequence:

1D-2C
1H-2C
1S-2D

All are about 5-10 points and show clubs, spades and hearts respectively. The first wont have a major, and none have primary support for partner.

Can you think of an imaginative way to respond?

Id like to be able to create a low-level force, and would like to determine range and other features, or maybe shortness.

Thanks.
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#2 User is online   straube 

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Posted 2018-June-13, 14:18

Not an answer to your question, but have you considered adapting IMprecision's double-barreled invite structure? It's the best idea I've seen in a long time.

For 1H it would be something like....

1S-0-7, various but no fit
1N-10+ GF (or 8+ if 5 OM)
2C-8-9, no fit, at most 4 of OM, promises a rebid
2D-fit, 7-9
2H-fit, 0-6

I assume your 1M openings are either 5M/4OM or 5M with 14+. If so putting weaker hands with 5 OM in with your GF hands works because you either have 14+ hcps or you have 22 with a 9-cd major fit.

Maybe Adam and Sieong can help you.

Personally, I think 1H-2C or 1S-2D as 5 OM throws away the information that opener has already supplied. Especially because 1M is forcing, opener is going to want to know ranges of strength. Are you in a GF? Will responder bid again? Does opener have to do something special to force again?
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#3 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2018-June-13, 16:32

View Poststraube, on 2018-June-13, 14:18, said:

Not an answer to your question, but have you considered adapting IMprecision's double-barreled invite structure? It's the best idea I've seen in a long time.

For 1H it would be something like....

1S-0-7, various but no fit
1N-10+ GF (or 8+ if 5 OM)
2C-8-9, no fit, at most 4 of OM, promises a rebid
2D-fit, 7-9
2H-fit, 0-6

I assume your 1M openings are either 5M/4OM or 5M with 14+. If so putting weaker hands with 5 OM in with your GF hands works because you either have 14+ hcps or you have 22 with a 9-cd major fit.

Maybe Adam and Sieong can help you.

Personally, I think 1H-2C or 1S-2D as 5 OM throws away the information that opener has already supplied. Especially because 1M is forcing, opener is going to want to know ranges of strength. Are you in a GF? Will responder bid again? Does opener have to do something special to force again?


This is very close to what we play:

1 = KI with 0-4 spades. 0-10 or so.
1N = Game Forcing Relay. Includes many hands, even some strong raises. As far as having the other major goes, yes we could load some of those hands from 2 into 1N. However, there is some range of hands that isn't good enough to GF, or ugly enough where I want to bid 1 with.

Also, what you say is true after 1M, but 1 - 2 is a different beast, since there it's not - "either we mesh with a minimum or we do not mesh but still have values for a GF".

The rest

2 = spades, 5-10 (not GF)....but I agree it makes sense to maybe tighten the range to about 4-7.
2 = constructive to weakish limit raise
2 = weak raise about 4-6
2 / 3m = inv 8-10 / 10-12
2N = mixed raise, 7-19
3 = 4-6, 4 trump
3, 3N, 4m = unknown and known void splinters, 9+
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#4 User is online   straube 

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Posted 2018-June-13, 17:37

I recommend reviewing the two-invite thread. I think 1H-2C is better as invitational denying 5 spades than constructive with spades.

Agree 1D-2C is a different animal.
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#5 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2018-June-14, 04:00

You probably know this already, but Grue-Moss play

1M-?:

1M+1 = "F1NT"
1M+2 = "GF ASK"
1M+3 = "5+ OM, constructive",
1M+4 = "3-LIMIT"
1M+5 = "simple raise",

although according to notes 16 and 17,

1-?:

1 = "Like a forcing 1NT; any number of "
2 = "5 constructive - invite"
2 = "6+, anything Precision < inv in nat. Resps like weak 2 (3 good , 3 to play"

1-?:

2 = "5 (sometimes 6) constructive---invite"
3 = "6+ wide ranging".

It's nice that the 2 response to 1 practically denies 6+ H so that Opener may know what to do on minimum hands with 5S1-H. The downside, of course, is that it's generally not possible to stop in 2 after 1-2; 2-P when Responder is weak with 6 H. So I wonder if the 3 response is really worth it.
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#6 User is offline   Kungsgeten 

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Posted 2018-June-16, 08:27

View PostPhil, on 2018-June-13, 06:24, said:

In our fantunes-like methods, where 1x is unlimited, we have the following sequence:

1D-2C
1H-2C
1S-2D

All are about 5-10 points and show clubs, spades and hearts respectively. The first wont have a major, and none have primary support for partner.

Can you think of an imaginative way to respond?

Id like to be able to create a low-level force, and would like to determine range and other features, or maybe shortness.

Thanks.


What shapes are included into 1D-2C? What would a raise to 2D show? If you raise diamonds with 3 card support, then 2C should probably be 6+C or 3-3-2-5. I'm thinking it might be possible to play opener's 2D rebid as forcing for one round, and responder tries to clarify strength and some extra shape information.

Does your 1M openings include balanced "minimum" hands? If not, perhaps something like this could be played over 1H-2C:

1H-2C;
2D = 2+ spades, asking shape and strength.
2H = 6+H, non-forcing. 0-1 spades (or maybe two if having a nice heart suit).
2S = 5H, 0-1 spades, non-forcing. Resonder can pass with 6+S, or scramble a minor fit.
2NT+ = Forcing hands with short spades.

Not sure about 1S-2D. We play this, but our 1S show 11-16 and 2D shows a weak hand with 6+H, or INV with 5H, or GF with 5+H (not wanting to relay). We bid:

1S-2D;
2H = 0-2 hearts.
2S = Usually 0-1 hearts, 6+S.
2NT = Max with 3+ hearts.
3m = Natural, good hand.
3H = Min with 3+ hearts.
3S = Natural.

I tinkered with a system using Glen Ashton's idea of opening 8-16 single-suited major hands at the two-level. Now it was possible to use 1S-2D; 2S as a cheap relay.
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#7 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2018-June-18, 20:21

View PostKungsgeten, on 2018-June-16, 08:27, said:

What shapes are included into 1D-2C? What would a raise to 2D show? If you raise diamonds with 3 card support, then 2C should probably be 6+C or 3-3-2-5. I'm thinking it might be possible to play opener's 2D rebid as forcing for one round, and responder tries to clarify strength and some extra shape information.

Does your 1M openings include balanced "minimum" hands? If not, perhaps something like this could be played over 1H-2C:

1H-2C;
2D = 2+ spades, asking shape and strength.
2H = 6+H, non-forcing. 0-1 spades (or maybe two if having a nice heart suit).
2S = 5H, 0-1 spades, non-forcing. Resonder can pass with 6+S, or scramble a minor fit.
2NT+ = Forcing hands with short spades.

Not sure about 1S-2D. We play this, but our 1S show 11-16 and 2D shows a weak hand with 6+H, or INV with 5H, or GF with 5+H (not wanting to relay). We bid:

1S-2D;
2H = 0-2 hearts.
2S = Usually 0-1 hearts, 6+S.
2NT = Max with 3+ hearts.
3m = Natural, good hand.
3H = Min with 3+ hearts.
3S = Natural.

I tinkered with a system using Glen Ashton's idea of opening 8-16 single-suited major hands at the two-level. Now it was possible to use 1S-2D; 2S as a cheap relay.


2D raise is about 4-9 or so and hands with 5C-3D would never bid 2C and I'm not sure hands with 6C and 3D would. Obviously both deny a 4cM.

Our 1M is unbalanced - 1C or some number of 1N is opened on all 5332.

I like the inquiry idea with 2D but for sake of my neurons, I like as much parallel structure as possible so maybe 2N is the inquiry after 1S-2D.
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#8 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2018-June-19, 04:47

Do you also play 1-2 as a constructive to weakish limit raise? If so, wouldn't it be better to play

1-?:

(...)
2 = a) 5-7, 2-S6+H b) constructive to weakish limit raise c) 8-10, 2-S5+H
...2 = to play opposite a)
......P = a)
......2 = b)
......2N+ = c)
...(...)
2 = 5-7, 2-S5H
(...)

?
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