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4th suit bid would like suggstions

#1 User is offline   Shugart23 

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Posted 2018-June-09, 05:10

Playing Canape :

Partner opens 1H and is DOUBLED. (Partner promises 4+ Hearts)...I bid 1NT which is a transfer to 2C and then rebid a non-forcing 2D when it comes around to me....Opener now knows I am at least 5-5 in the Minors....Opener can set the contract now by making any Club, Diamond, or Heart bid at any level. Opener can also invite me to game in any of the three known suits by first bidding 2NT (relay to 3C and then making the invite)


We are trying to give reasonable meanings to Opener's bid of 2S or fast and slow 3S...(Playing canape, it is quite likely Partner has more Spades than Hearts and we have a misfit if she is making one of these bids)..


Thanks for any suggestions
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#2 User is offline   tritonium 

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Posted 2018-June-10, 00:04

I have a suggestion you probably won't like, but it meant to be constructive. Stop playing Canape and switch to Transfer Precision, or at least 2/1.
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#3 User is offline   PhilG007 

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Posted 2018-June-10, 01:40

"Canape" went out with the Dodo. Switch to a more modern systemPosted Image
"It is not enough to be a good player, you must also play well"
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Bridge is a game where you have two opponents...and often three(!)


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by how he handles the two's and three's" - Mollo's Hideous Hog
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#4 User is offline   Shugart23 

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Posted 2018-June-10, 03:18

View Posttritonium, on 2018-June-10, 00:04, said:

I have a suggestion you probably won't like, but it meant to be constructive. Stop playing Canape and switch to Transfer Precision, or at least 2/1.


Played transfer super Precision for years......didn't like having to have a 5 card Major to open 1H or 1S so made the switch to 4 card Major Openings about 2 years ago

we still play strong Club with transfers, however Canape is much more interesting (and enjoyable) for the hands with less than 16 HCP...there is no going back to 5 card Majors for us ( I have tasted the apple)
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#5 User is offline   tritonium 

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Posted 2018-June-11, 00:17

View PostShugart23, on 2018-June-10, 03:18, said:

Played transfer super Precision for years......didn't like having to have a 5 card Major to open 1H or 1S so made the switch to 4 card Major Openings about 2 years ago

we still play strong Club with transfers, however Canape is much more interesting (and enjoyable) for the hands with less than 16 HCP...there is no going back to 5 card Majors for us ( I have tasted the apple)


I believe you have also tasted the Kool Ade.
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#6 User is offline   GrahamJson 

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Posted 2018-June-11, 02:47

View PostShugart23, on 2018-June-09, 05:10, said:



We are trying to give reasonable meanings to Opener's bid of 2S or fast and slow 3S...(Playing canape, it is quite likely Partner has more Spades than Hearts and we have a misfit if she is making one of these bids)..


Thanks for any suggestions

Im curious as to why you are interested in distinguishing between fast and slow 3S. Ive no idea what 3S should mean in this auction (a splinter maybe) but it shouldnt vary with tempo.
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#7 User is offline   GrahamJson 

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Posted 2018-June-11, 02:48

Maybe Ive misunderstood you. Do you mean a jump to 3S as against 2S followed by 3S?
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#8 User is offline   Shugart23 

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Posted 2018-June-11, 04:33

View Posttritonium, on 2018-June-11, 00:17, said:

I believe you have also tasted the Kool Ade.



:).It is a lot of fun to open a 4 card Major headed by a 7 and then watch the opponents squirm because they have A,K 5th....
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#9 User is offline   Shugart23 

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Posted 2018-June-11, 04:40

View PostGrahamJson, on 2018-June-11, 02:48, said:

Maybe Ive misunderstood you. Do you mean a jump to 3S as against 2S followed by 3S?


Yeah....2S or jump to 3S or slow 3S via 2NT relay.....I think , for now, 2S is just to Play.....slow 3S will be invite to 4S....and jump to 3S is just undefined.....(In these sequencers, Opener has 9+ cards in the Majors and Responder showing 10+ cards in the Minors, it is just a mess)
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#10 User is offline   SelfGovern 

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Posted 2018-June-11, 22:55

View PostShugart23, on 2018-June-09, 05:10, said:

Playing Canape :

Partner opens 1H and is DOUBLED. (Partner promises 4+ Hearts)...I bid 1NT which is a transfer to 2C and then rebid a non-forcing 2D when it comes around to me....Opener now knows I am at least 5-5 in the Minors....Opener can set the contract now by making any Club, Diamond, or Heart bid at any level. Opener can also invite me to game in any of the three known suits by first bidding 2NT (relay to 3C and then making the invite)


We are trying to give reasonable meanings to Opener's bid of 2S or fast and slow 3S...(Playing canape, it is quite likely Partner has more Spades than Hearts and we have a misfit if she is making one of these bids)..


Thanks for any suggestions


Just a suggestion -- given what you said above, it seems that after
1H - X - 1N - P
2C - 2D - P

You can't make an invitation in clubs. Why not make 3!C now invitational, and 2NT relay to 3!C, allowing responder to pass 3!C and set the contract?
Liberty breeds responsibility
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#11 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2018-June-12, 21:09

View PostShugart23, on 2018-June-11, 04:33, said:

:).It is a lot of fun to open a 4 card Major headed by a 7 and then watch the opponents squirm because they have A,K 5th....


It is not much fun when pd opens 1M and they overcall or preempt over it, but you will conveniently skip this part, won't you? Posted Image
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"

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#12 User is offline   Shugart23 

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Posted 2018-June-12, 23:52

View PostMrAce, on 2018-June-12, 21:09, said:

It is not much fun when pd opens 1M and they overcall or preempt over it, but you will conveniently skip this part, won't you? Posted Image


Haven't had any problem with opponents interference, anymore than anyone else does, especially when they overcall into our longer suit. Then it is even more fun.

Opening the weak 4 card Major vs opening the Precision 1D (like we used to), has a preemptive value and messes up the opponent's ability to double and overcall or find the right lead, at times
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#13 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2018-June-13, 01:07

View PostShugart23, on 2018-June-09, 05:10, said:

Playing Canape

1 = ?
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#14 User is offline   Shugart23 

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Posted 2018-June-13, 03:14

View Postnullve, on 2018-June-13, 01:07, said:

1 = ?


We use the Rule of 20 (or 19 with a quick trick) in general...less than 16 HCP because then we open strong 1C. 1 Heart open shows 4+ Hearts...almost always 4 with a longer side suit OR 6+ Hearts. (our NT range is 12-15 so 1NT bid could contain 4 or 5 hearts).
The Heart holding can be as weak as holding 2,3,4, and 5 of Hearts

It is pretty rare to have exactly 5 Hearts and open 1H (see below)

Assuming you have a hand worth opening :
with exactly 5 Hearts and 4 or 5 Diamonds, open 1D
with exactly 5 Hearts and 4 Spades, open 1S
with exactly 5 Hearts and 4+ Clubs, open 2H (gives up the 2H preempt)
with exactly 5 Hearts, balanced, open 1NT if in range
with exactly 5 Hearts, balanced, but less than 12 HCP....pass but can sometimes open 1H only if you have a Spade fragment
with exactly 5 Hearts and a 6+ side suit, open 1H
If 5-5 in the Majors, can open 1H if Spades are superior
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#15 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2018-June-13, 06:32

Canape is fine. Its not my preference but there's a few good pairs out there that play them.

Im also sorry, you've spent a fair amount of time beating them off this morning. I doubt you wanted to know what others thought of.

Ill give this some thought.
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#16 User is offline   Shugart23 

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Posted 2018-June-13, 06:43

View PostPhil, on 2018-June-13, 06:32, said:

Canape is fine. Its not my preference but there's a few good pairs out there that play them.

Im also sorry, you've spent a fair amount of time beating them off this morning. I doubt you wanted to know what others thought of.

Ill give this some thought.


Precision was getting stale, so we shook things up and have found a rekindled enjoyment of the game and are having great success along the way. The hardest part was changing the thought process and all the new inferences that came along....Took a good 3-6 months before we got comfortable with the rebids...Now, we are pretty good with it

I don't think any of the previous posters were particularly out of line and I am happy to discuss with them, but thanks !
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#17 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2018-June-14, 14:14

View PostShugart23, on 2018-June-13, 06:43, said:

Precision was getting stale, so we shook things up and have found a rekindled enjoyment of the game and are having great success along the way. The hardest part was changing the thought process and all the new inferences that came along....Took a good 3-6 months before we got comfortable with the rebids...Now, we are pretty good with it

I don't think any of the previous posters were particularly out of line and I am happy to discuss with them, but thanks !


Several pairs in my club still prefer canape' based systems despite being quite capable of playing more modern stuff.
It puts them readily into viable game contracts, and they get by the rest by playing the cards better than most.
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#18 User is offline   Shugart23 

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Posted 2018-June-14, 15:31

View Postpescetom, on 2018-June-14, 14:14, said:

Several pairs in my club still prefer canape' based systems despite being quite capable of playing more modern stuff.
It puts them readily into viable game contracts, and they get by the rest by playing the cards better than most.


yeah, I just got tired of the 1D Precision bid is all.....Started with Ken Rexford's Modified Italian Canape System and modified some of it to fit our methods
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#19 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2018-June-15, 13:30

I would think playing canape, that you should probably refuse the transfer and bid 2s immediately. That would probably indicate no desire to play in clubs. Once the transfer is made and accepted, when you now bid 2d I think the spade suit is lost. Pick a minor, or play in nt. 2s should probably be asking about stoppers, 3s should be excitement about a minor.
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#20 User is offline   Shugart23 

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Posted 2018-June-16, 06:13

View PostHardVector, on 2018-June-15, 13:30, said:

I would think playing canape, that you should probably refuse the transfer and bid 2s immediately. That would probably indicate no desire to play in clubs. Once the transfer is made and accepted, when you now bid 2d I think the spade suit is lost. Pick a minor, or play in nt. 2s should probably be asking about stoppers, 3s should be excitement about a minor.


Thanks for the comment...This wont really work for us; accepting the transfer is mandatory (99% of the time). Here is more of our structure when my partner opens 1 of a Major and is doubled:

Redouble is what you might expect.

If Responder first transfers and then rebids a new suit, Responder shows at least 5-5...Depending upon the order of how the two suits are shown, one is game force and the other is not. If game force, Responder could be 5-4)

If Responder has a weak hand with some support for the Opener's Major, Responder can transfer into a suit first, and then bid 2 of the Major. This suggests 1st or 2nd round control of the suit and is suggestive of a defensive lead if Opponents get the contract

With good support and game/slam going values, Responder first transfers back into the Major and then bids a new suit...This creates a game force...eg 1H- Double-2D(transfer)-2H-3C

Responder can raise Opener's Major to any level and is to Play

If Responder is single suited (weak or strong), can transfer first and then Pass (if weak) or then raise the Opener after he has transferred
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