[gurgistan]

I am new to precision and would like to make a comprehensive list of it main varieties.

What I am aware of:

Precision
Super Precision
Big Club
Roman Club
Polish Club

What else is out there?

Many thanks.

[lowerline]

Polish Club is not a variant of Precision. Any sensible system classification should make a distinction between strong club systems (to which Precision belongs) and multi-way club systems (to which Polish Club belongs). Strong club systems should be further divided into 5crd major systems (like Precision) or 4crd major systems (like Blue Team Club).
To me Precision is a strong club system with 5crd majors.

Steven

[gordontd]

Roman Club and Polish Club are not varieties of Precision , and depending on what you mean by "Big Club" it probably isn't either.

I wonder if by "Precision" you mean "Strong Club" (although Roman Club and Polish Club aren't those either)?

If you really do mean Precision, you might include Match-Point Precision, Cambridge Precision, Icelandic Precision as well as the Super-Precision you've already noted.

[shintaro]

also Leeds Precision and Nottingham Club system

[gordontd]

shintaro, on 2011-February-22, 10:00, said:

also Leeds Precision and Nottingham Club system

Doesn't Nottingham Club pre-date Precision?

[hrothgar]

gurgistan, on 2011-February-22, 09:17, said:

I am new to precision and would like to make a comprehensive list of it main varieties.

I would strongly recommend that you start by trying to reach something approaching consensus regarding the definition of "Precision". Once you've achieved this, you'll be able to make a meaningful decision regarding which systems do/do not fit into this category.

Here's my list of the defining characteristics of "Precision". (The higher something is on the list, the more important I think it is)

1. Strong Club opening
2. Most other openings are limited to ~15 HCP (2NT is the exception)
3. 5 card majors
4. The 1NT opening shows ~13-15 HCP
5. The 2C opening shows 5+ Clubs
6. The 2D opening shows short Diamonds
7. The 1D opening shows 3+ Diamonds

As Adam has noted, there are plenty of systems that call themselves "Precision" that don't necessarily agree with all of this list.

From my perspective, things start getting hazy once you hit line 4...

I don't think that a 4 card major system should ever be called Precision. (I prefer the more nebulous expression "Strong Club")

[awm]

Right, there are too many variants to list every one out there; a lot of pairs have "their own" strong club system. The main feature of a strong club system is that the 1♣ opening is artificial, forcing, and includes all (or at least most) medium or better hands (and does not include weaker hands) . All (or at least most) other openings will be limited to weaker than the 1♣ opening.

With that said, there are lots of different strong club systems out there, many of which go by the name XXX Precision (for some value of XXX). Probably the main decision is whether to play five-card majors or four-card majors, as these lead to somewhat different structures for the other openings. Arguably four-card major systems are "strong club, but not really precision" -- however they are popular and include for example Blue Team Club and Moscito.

Assuming five-card majors, the next big decision is what to do with balanced hands and the 1♦ opening. The original precision system (i.e. CC Wei book) included a fairly natural 1♦ opening (4+♦ or 3♦/5♣). In order to manage this in a five-card major system, you need to have only one range of balanced hands opening below 1♣ strength. Thus for example CC Wei had 1NT=13-15, 1♣ as 16+, and balanced hands with 12 or fewer points would pass. Most modern 5cM strong club systems that want a natural 1♦ include 1NT=12-14 (or 12-15) because people open lighter on balanced hands now than they did back then. The alternative (maybe more popular in 5cM-land) approach is to use a more artificial 1♦ opening that includes all balanced hands (without a 5M) in some range. So for example Meckwell Precision uses 1NT=14-16, with a balanced 11-13 opening 1♦, and stronger balanced hands opening 1♣ or 2NT. This lets you open lighter on balanced hands without playing a huge 1NT range or starting your 1♣ opening at a fairly light 15 points.

There are also some decisions regarding what to do with unbalanced hands including primary clubs. Most strong club systems include a natural 2♣ opening, but there is some debate as to whether this should be 6+♣ or only 5+♣. The 6+♣ version is probably better when you open 2♣, but leaves you with the problem of where to place hands with distributions like 4315. There are also issues with 4414 hands. There seem to be five basic approaches: (1) The CC Wei Approach. Opening 2♣ shows either 6+♣ or 5♣ with a four-card major; opening 2♦ shows 4414 or 4405 in that order. Hands with 3♦ and 5♣ open 1♦. (2) The Meckwell Approach. Opening 2♣ shows 6+♣. Opening 2♦ shows 4414 or 4405 or 4315 or 3415 in those orders. Hands with 3♦ and 5♣ open 1♦. (3) The artificial diamond approach. Opening 2♣ shows 6+♣. Hands with 4414 or 4315 etc. open 1♦. This makes the 1♦ opening totally artificial, but frees up 2♦ to be used as a preempt. (4) The intermediate 2m approach. Opening 2♣ shows 6+♣ and opening 2♦ shows 6+♦. The 1♦ opening is very much an artificial catch-all, but is almost always either balanced or a three-suited pattern. (5) The really artificial diamond approach. All opening hands with no 5M and not in 1NT or 1♣ range open 1♦. This is difficult to untangle, but frees up 2♣ and 2♦ as preempts.

Of course, there are probably more approaches than I listed to these problems, and I haven't really mentioned the later decisions necessary in four-card major strong club at all.

[straube]

The first Precision system I played was (I think) closely based on the Wei approach. I think the 1D promised four diamonds but it could have been three. I remember that we had to pass certain 11-12 hands for want of diamonds, but when we had the requisite number and a balanced hand, we opened 1D and rebid 1N.

[straube]

When I think of Precision it's with...

1 16+ club with non-relay responses
2 5-cd majors
3 2C showing 5+ clubs
4 1D showing 3(4)+ diamonds and 2D showing short diamonds
5 strong (13-15)NT
6 asking bids in 1C auctions
7 strong 2N open
8 weak 2s

I think Precision made its biggest departures from what the Italians and others were doing in relaxing the club a point (many were using 1C as 17), use of 5-cd majors, use of natural responses to 1C instead of control responses, and use of asking bids.

[nigel_k]

I second everything Adam said and would add that sometimes people cram 'extra' shapes into the 1NT opening (e.g. 5422, 6322 or 4441). I don't really recommend this but it is a decision that many people make.

The main point is that you need to logically build an opening bid structure for yourself. It's not that hard, and you can always post it here for people to pick apart if you wish. The fact that others have dreamed up various methods and given them names doesn't mean those methods should be treated as having any authority, or even that they are decent.

[blackshoe]

"Natural Precision" (book by Brown).
"Romex Forcing Club" (Godfrey's Stairway to the Stars, Rosenkranz and Alder). The authors describe this as a mix of ideas from Precision, Blue Club, and Romex. Openings:

1♣: artificial, 17+ HCP
1♦: catch all, 2+ ♦, 11-16 HCP.
1♥/♠: natural, 5+ trumps, 11-16 HCP.
1NT: natural, balanced, 10-12 HCP.
2♣: natural, 6+ trumps, 12-15 HCP.
2♦: artificial, strong, either balanced 21-22 HCP, balanced 27-28 HCP, or unbalanced, primary ♦, GF.
2♥: artificial, short diamonds, some (43)(10)(45) shape, 12-16 HCP.
2♠: natural, usually 6 trumps, 6-10 HCP.
2NT: artificial, weak, equivalent to a bad 3 lvl preempt in either minor.
3m: natural, weak, preemptive, better than 2NT, opener would be happy for partner to bid 3NT.
3M and above are basically all preemptive, play 'em how you like.

In the ACBL, the 2♥ and 2NT openings are Mid-Chart.

[awm]

Perhaps it's worth mentioning that there are even further distinctions, once you settle on the opening structure. These include:

How do you bid after a 1M opening? The CC Wei book has 2/1 forcing through 2NT. Most modern pairs play 2/1 forcing to game. There are a few who play some sort of relays after the 1M opening.

What's your follow-up approach to strong club? Most pairs play 1♣-P-1♦ as "less than GF" with other auctions game forcing (but a few have tried direct semi-positives or some other approach). The CC Wei book has natural responses and asking bids. In modern styles, the asking bids seem to have (mostly) fallen out of favor. Transfer responses are popular. Some modern pairs like to use a direct 1♣-P-1♥ to show any intermediate hand (i.e. 8-11) so that other calls show more slam interest. And some pairs go the full relay route, where most auctions have responder describing his hand while opener just makes the cheapest call (relay).

There are also questions about continuations after 1♦, 2♣, or 1NT openings... although the system over 1NT seems mostly independent of the rest of the methods, and playing 2♦ over 2♣ as "asking at least invite" with most other responses non-forcing seems to be quite widespread.

[Free]

I consider Precision the following:
- strong ♣ (no weak options)
- 5 card Majors
- natural 1NT
- nebulous 1♦ openings
(- 2♣ natural)

There are some variations:
- what to do with hands with short ♦? Some open 1♦ anyway, which makes the 1♦ opening very nebulous. Others open 1NT (or 1♥) with 4-4-1-4 and 2♣ with (43)-1-5 or 4-4-0-5. Others open 2♦ to show specifically 3-suited hands with short ♦
- what do you do with an unbalanced hand with exactly 5♣? Some open 2♣, some open 2♣ without 4♦ but 1♦ with 4♦-5♣, others open 1♦ irrespective of the side suits, others open 1♦ except with ♦ shortness,...
- what are the NT ranges? Some play 1NT 10-12, and open 13-15 with 1♦, others reverse this, others make this dependant of the vulnerability and seat,... Other ranges like 11-13 and 14-16 are also common.

Note that this is only about opening structure, the continuations have many varieties as well. After 1M openings some play 2/1 GF, others use a strong relay and everything else is NF,... After 1♣ openings there's even more choice: natural, transfers, full relays, 1♦ GF with 1♠ as double negative and other responses semipositive,...

- If you're looking at Precision varieties, this pretty much covers it.
- If you're looking for strong ♣ systems, then you can add a complete new set of systems: 4 card Majors, MAFIA styles, canapé, transfer openings (like MOSCITO),...
- If you're looking for artificial ♣ systems, then you can add multiway ♣ systems as well, like Polish Club, Swedish ♣, Fantunes,...

So to be able to help you in the best way we can, we need to know more what you're looking for exactly.

[shintaro]

gordontd, on 2011-February-22, 10:07, said:

Doesn't Nottingham Club pre-date Precision?

Not sure Gordon I am not that Old

I play Precision but my 1♦ opening can be as bad as zero cards in ♦ mainly to cope with rubbish 5 card ♣ suit with all points in 2 4 card Majors

[zasanya]

You may add the systems given in the following books.
1) Power Precision ( By Alan Sontag)
2) Goren Precision (By Charles Goren )
3) Viking Precision (BY Glenn Grotheim , Barry Rigal , Alan Sontag )

[PrecisionL]

gordontd, on 2011-February-22, 10:07, said:

Doesn't Nottingham Club pre-date Precision?

Yes it does. Three books published in 50 - 70s & I own one.

Several years ago I played the Nottingham Club AT the Nottingham Bridge Club in England!

[Flameous]

With you guys classifying precision here, I'd like to know if you'd still include my current work of Decision Club under Precision. (Not that it matters, I'm actually just representing it here to be picked apart like Nigel said )

1♣ = 15+ any without unbal ♦s unless GF
1♦ = 3+, unbal, 10-22 or so
1♥ = 5+, 10-14 (Usually no 4♠)
1♠ = 5+, 10-14
1NT = 12-15, bal or short ♦
2♣ = 6+, no 4♦
2♦ = Multi
2♥ = 10-14, Flannery

Everything is followed with symmetric style relays.

I guess it doesn't really fit cause 1♦ has strong hands in it but I don't know if there really is a class to put it in (Except the vague strong club)

[straube]

Flameous, on 2011-March-17, 12:16, said:

With you guys classifying precision here, I'd like to know if you'd still include my current work of Decision Club under Precision. (Not that it matters, I'm actually just representing it here to be picked apart like Nigel said )

1♣ = 15+ any without unbal ♦s unless GF
1♦ = 3+, unbal, 10-22 or so
1♥ = 5+, 10-14 (Usually no 4♠)
1♠ = 5+, 10-14
1NT = 12-15, bal or short ♦
2♣ = 6+, no 4♦
2♦ = Multi
2♥ = 10-14, Flannery

Everything is followed with symmetric style relays.


I guess it doesn't really fit cause 1♦ has strong hands in it but I don't know if there really is a class to put it in (Except the vague strong club)

I don't believe it's in the Precision family. I'd describe it as a strong club relay system.

[PrecisionL]

gordontd, on 2011-February-22, 10:07, said:

Doesn't Nottingham Club pre-date Precision?

Yes, the first published book on the Nottingham Club was 1954 by Margery Burns. She claimed it had taken her 10 years to write the book which incorporated the Loose Diamond opening bid (usually in 3rd seat with 11-12 hcp). Nottingham also used the opening 2♦ as strong, 22+ or game in hand.

9/14/18: Precursor of Schenken's Strong 2♦ asking for aces? (Initially used by Vanderbilt in "The Club Convention," 1964.)

The first Precision book was published in 1969.

If Acol is an Attitude of Mind, then "Nottingham" is a Triumph of Mind over Matter ...

[PrecisionL]

Recent books published on Strong Club Systems:

Milkwood, Thomas Dullan, 2017

Positive responses show hcp, not recommended.

Barcelona Strong Club, Assalit & Sabate, 2017

Positive responses show controls, not recommended.

BFUN, Bridge For the UNbalanced, Cadmus, 2015

Positive responses show QP points (AKQ), other subjects are interesting, including canape.

Edited: June 2, 2018 0822 hrs EDT:

I just re-read Barcelona Strong Club and strongly recommend this book as it is probably the best theory book on Strong Club Design. Positive responses are Transfers, not control showing. The authors argue that 5-5 hands are more frequent than 4441 hands and thus have 3 bids to show 5-5 hands and a positive response at a low level (2♥, 2♠, and 2NT). Bids from 3♣ through 4♠ contain the 4441 hands. I would put all the 4441 hands in one bid to be unpacked with a relay. If opener makes the cheapest response after a positive response, it is a relay for responder to describe his/her hand.

Edited September 1, 2018 12:30 AM EDT:

Pattern Precision, by J.W. Hawthorne, published: August 13, 2018. A very interesting read. 1NT and higher responses to 1♣ show minor(s) and distribution. 2♣ response is balanced, 2♦ and 2♥ are 5 or 6-cd minor with a singleton, 2♠ is unusual or 6m331, 2NT is 4441 and 11+ hcp, higher bids are 4441 and weaker.