[Rado]

Hi all friends,

Further to Flytoox example,may add:

1C - (1D)-?
DBL = 4-4 in majors 5+points, or 5+4+ when FG
1M = 4+cards F1
such agreements helps a lot when bidding goes:
1C-(1D)-...-(3D)
Regards Rado

[inquiry]

Quote

Sitting south, I have:
S: KTXX
H: J9XX
D: JXXX
C: X

W N E S
---- 1C 1D PASS
1N 2C PASS PASS
2D PASS PASS ?

First to your question. Is a Double by south now Penalty or Take out? This is a situation where bridge logic might help you. First, West didn't have to bid (1D overcall was not forcing). Second, he didn't have to bid again after his partner's pass. So it is safe to assume that WEST is far from broke. You take your best guess, but I would say he has at about 10 hcp, and a modest diamond fit. So unless East is taking a flight of fancy, they have about half the deck, and a fair fit. So what do you think? Is there enough HCP and diamonds left for a double here to be used effectively as Penalty?

If you think the answer is yes, then ask yourself this question. If YOU had a good hand with diamonds and hcp, after your partner bid 2C and EAST passed would you pass? The answer to that is no.

So the Bridge logic calls for this particular double to be takeout (what you are calling negative).

Now to address the question FREE brought up about if you made a mistake by not doubling on the first round of bidding. In one of his replies he stated that he makes negative doubles with 0 HCP's. Well, this may work for him, but I think that strategy puts too much pressure on the on the competitive bidding, since the range of hcp (and potential defensive tricks) would be very high indeed. But do the fact that this hand has 5 points and good distribution for a double, and because partner has two shots at responding at the one level, a double would not be a horrible decision.

I think if I was vulnerable, I would consider an initial negative double this hand and get the hand off my chest all at once. At imps you want to bid close games, so bidding aggressively might not be horrible. And if you pass when vulnerable, you will have a harder time bidding safely later in the auction. And besides, after an initial double I am out of the auction forever, and with four diamonds, it is virtually impossible partner will make a penatly pass, or be doubling them in higher level diamond contracts. And if he does, we will have the majority of the diamonds.

Having said that, my partner would expect a little more for a negative double than this 1/2 quick trick disaster. So in all likelyhood I would pass the opportunity, then pass again over partners 2Clubs, and then balance back in with a double over 2Diamonds.

Ben

[flytoox]

Quote

I think if I was vulnerable, I would consider an initial negative double this hand and get the hand off my chest all at once. At imps you want to bid close games, so bidding aggressively might not be horrible. And if you pass when vulnerable, you will have a harder time bidding safely later in the auction. And besides, after an initial double I am out of the auction forever, and with four diamonds, it is virtually impossible partner will make a penatly pass, or be doubling them in higher level diamond contracts. And if he does, we will have the majority of the diamonds.

Having said that, my partner would expect a little more for a negative double than this 1/2 quick trick disaster. So in all likelyhood I would pass the opportunity, then pass again over partners 2Clubs, and then balance back in with a double over 2Diamonds.

Ben

Ben, thx very much for this sound analysis. I like your suggestion of pass, pass and dbl. The reason I didnot make a neg dbl at first round is that I dont want my pd to compete too high. If I dbl at first round, pd is very likely to compete to 3 level with one major fit. Or dbl opp's 3 level contract. THat would be a disaster.

Thanks again.
Hongjun

[inquiry]

Rosenkranz Double (and Redouble)....

Ok.. here is the first of the lead directing doubles...In general, when you play Rosenkranz double (and redouble), to show a fitting card for partner in his suit (ACE, KING, or QUEEN). A direct raise denies such an honor card. So both the double and the raise would need to be alerted.

I don't generally play the rosenkranz double, preferring instead to play snapdragon double (maybe someone would like to talk about the snapdragon... Cave_Drago?)... However, I find the rosenkranz redouble very useful. That is after partner overcalls and RHO makes a negative double, I will REDOUBLE. This redouble shows the Ace, king or Queen and LACK of the ability to support partner... think singleton or doubleton.

Now, since it might go RDBL-Pass-Pass-Pass... when you don't fit for partner, I play this redouble as Rosentkranz only at the one level. Getting partner off to the right lead (and by negative inference, keeping from leading his suit by not redoubling) will win you lots of matchpoints and imps.

Ben

[Free]

I play this a similar way, but I'm used to redouble also on 2-level (with support) when I'm too weak to support to 3-level, i.e. after 1X - 2Y - Dbl - RDbl*.

Supporting has a higher priority in my partnership and we base our strenght on LTC (Loser Trick Count). Support on the 2-level on the other hand is obligated, even with 0 HCP.

Later on, if they cuebid our suit, my partner will pass with a top honour and will double without one.

[keylime]

And let's not forget Thrump, minimum offshape takeout, and equal level conversion doubles (ELCD for short) either...

Snapdragon doubles are relatively easy to understand. Let's say that LHO opens 1C and pard decides to overcall 1D. RHO then chimes in with 1H. What a Snapdragon double does is announce to partner that they have a 5 card suit in the fourth suit (the one unmentioned) with tolerance (normally a doubleton, sometimes a really bad tripleton) for partner's overcall.

D.

[jillybean]

Just adding a reply to highlight this thread.

[inquiry]

It's been almost a year since my last post to this thread, but since jillybean2 has dragged it forward, I will continue with where I left off. We have not come close to exhausting the topic of doubles. The last one I talked was lead-directing doubles (specifically rosenkrantz), so let's consider another lead directing double: A Lightner Double.

Like the Rosenkrantz double, this is A lightner double is used to help on defense by being lead directing. And like the Rosenkrantz double, this one is named after its inventor (in this case, Theodore Lightner).

As invented, the lightner double is a double of slam bid by your opponents and is based on the following premise: If they bid a slam, odds are they will either make or be off just one, so "penalty doubles" expecting a huge profit just don't occur (we are not talking about against their sacrafices, but rather volunteerily bid slams). Mr. Lightner realised that a double by the partner of the player who will be on lead could be put to better use than as penatly. It could be used as a lead direction tool to try tip the make/down one equation into the favor of the defensive side.

So he established some rules of what a double of a slam by the hand NOT ON LEAD would mean. It means lead something unusual that

1) is not a trump
2) is not a suit bid by our side (the defenders)
3) generally the doubler can ruff a suit (or win two quick tricks in suit) bid by the opponents.

Some people play a lightner double to mean you must lead dummies first bid suit, but others (like me), turst my partner to work out from auction and own hand what to lead (but never my suit or our suit)

What should you do if you have them set on a normal lead when they bid slam? If you can't be sure to set them on an usuaual lead, you pass. What if you ahve them set no matter what your partner leads? Feel free to double.

Ben

[bambi1]

hi, Ill tackle the Lightner Double, here goes.....

This is a double used of a voluntarily bid slam. It asks for an unusual lead, often the first bid suit by the dummy.

W p
N 1d
E p
S 1s
W p
N 3s
E p
S 6s
W p
N p
E X

East is asking for a diamond lead.

Note: Lightner doubles DO NOT apply when their slam is a sacrifice of your own game or slam.


Defense.

If you are declarer in a slam and your right hand opponent makes a ligntener double, you should consider redoubling when you are void in partner's first bid suit. This may bring you a remarkable profit!!

On the other hand (no pun intended), if you have length in partner's first bid suit you might consider running to 6nt.

Good luck!

[bambi1]

I had this ready to post the other day, and ran out of time, so just posted it fast today. Did not see the previous post by Ben.

Sorry.......

[inquiry]

More the merrier, and in your post, you gave an example auction, and you gave defense to Lightner double, neither of which did I. Helps illustrate the point, don't you think? Next maybe someone will talk about what doubles of 3NT mean in competititve auctions...

Ben

[Free]

I really hate Lightner Doubles, most of the time they give away the contract to opps when they run to 6NT... Wouldn't be the first time, and certainly won't be the last time 6NT is the right contract!

[EarlPurple]

talking of penalties over pre-empts. I would rather hold this:

KJTx
xx
QJxx
xxx

and hear the auction go 2♠ (weak) on my right, passed round to partner who doubles and I pass.

than have this:

KJTx
Ax
KJxx
AQx

where now I will have to overcall 2NT instead of making a penalty double. If I pass, partner probably will too if he has the 8 points or so I need for 3NT.

But on the first one I look forward to a decent penalty. I can lead through dummy's values into partner's values, and he can lead through declarer into my trumps. With the second one if partner has nothing I have to lead away from all my honours and I'm probably doing better going off in 2NT than I would be defending 2S which may well make. (Maybe I get no more than my 3 trumps and 2 aces).

[EarlPurple]

inquiry, on Aug 1 2003, 11:09 AM, said:

Rosenkranz Double (and Redouble)....

Ok.. here is the first of the lead directing doubles...In general, when you play Rosenkranz double (and redouble), to show a fitting card for partner in his suit (ACE, KING, or QUEEN). A direct raise denies such an honor card. So both the double and the raise would need to be alerted.

The way I play it a direct raise does not deny a holding but shows more cards in the suit.

The Rosenkranz Dbl I play shows Hx after partner has overcalled (thus partner promises at least 5). The bidding might go:

LHO Pard [space]RHO [space] You
1[di] [space] 1[he] [space] 1[sp] [space] [space]Dbl

I'm showing some values to compete and Hx in partner's suit where H is Q or higher. If partner has 6 he can compete further, and it's also useful if he ends up on lead.

The Rosenkranz redouble is the same except RHO made a negative double. So the bidding might have gone:

LHO Pard [space]RHO [space] You
1[di] [space] 1[sp] [space] Dbl [space] Rdbl

In this auction I also promise that 2♠ promises one of the top 3 honours but 3 card support. I discuss this in depth in my article "Lead Directional Bidding".