[straube]

After a strong club, the 1D response is roughly 0-4 hcps or GF. Two of opener's rebids are...

2C-either 6C or 5+C/4H or 5+C/4D, not forcing
2H-5+C/4H, 21+ hcps and forcing

Wondering about...

2C-6C or 5+C/4D
2H-5+C/4H, forcing

so that we're forced to the 3-level with the 5+C/4H hands. It's easy to construct disaster hands here but I'm wondering if the frequency of this would be very high. The positive aspects include easier relays (save a step sometimes) and find some heart fits opposite the DN (though at the 3-level).

I'm actually not very interested in this particular switch but it's an example of a general question I've had which is....is it worthwhile being "optimistic" of finding partner with the GF hand in trying to save relay steps (along with the benefit of finding better fits opposite the 0-4 hand) at the risk of getting too high sometimes? When opener has primary clubs and responder has 0-4 hcps, I would think the opponents might have found a bid.

[awm]

The other side of this is that if partner has 0-4 and opponents are not bidding, it becomes more likely that opponents are quite balanced and neither side has much of a fit...

[straube]

Yeah, I've sampled hands and definitely come across that.

What's your sense of how often 1C-1D, 2C gets passed out? I've wondered if even 2C could be made to be natural and forcing.

[awm]

If we have the auction 1C-P-1D-P-2C-P-P then there is almost never a balancing call (I don’t think I’ve ever seen it). But you’re right that an opponent will often bid on the first round.

My general approach has been to avoid trade offs that lead to horrible results on some rare hand type in exchange for very slightly better results on some much more frequent hand type. Even though these work “on average” they are in unappealing for a range of other reasons. But YMMV.

[straube]

Interesting to me that the opponents seem always to pass out 2C. I would have thought different but I've so little experience actually using IMPrecision.

How often do you think responder with a DN passes 2C? What, for example, does 2M suggest? Forward-going I assume. How about 2N? Weak club raise? I'm guessing you have a good and bad way of raising clubs.

Obviously, the more likely responder is to bid over 2C (with a DN), the more upside to making that 2C bid forcing in the first place.

[awm]

I feel like responder usually passes, basically because balanced hands are more frequent. This isn’t the most common action so it’s not like I have a huge amount of data.

As far as opponents go there are a couple factors:

1. Most opponents like to bid over 1♣ or over 1♣-P-1♦. So the fact they both passed already is quite meaningful.
2. This is actually a dangerous auction to balance, because it’s not a fit auction really, and because opener with most of the values is well equipped to know whether to defend.

[sfi]

I have played 2C as forcing on these auctions, with 3C showing the minimum hands with long clubs. TBH it didn't come up a lot, but gaining the extra level on good hands looks like it should work.

[straube]

I think Adam was right. I looked at some hands and also found I had a problem after (for example) 1C-1D, 2C-2S if 2C were forcing....there would be no way to invite except when able to raise spades.

Curious how IMPrecision handles 21-23 hcps and something like 1-3-5-4. The way I have it now, I have either to make an underbid of 2D or pretend I have 6 diamonds and invite at the point of 3D (leaving clubs out of the picture). Not fun but should be pretty rare.

[foobar]

straube, on 2018-April-29, 19:08, said:

Curious how IMPrecision handles 21-23 hcps and something like 1-3-5-4. The way I have it now, I have either to make an underbid of 2D or pretend I have 6 diamonds and invite at the point of 3D (leaving clubs out of the picture). Not fun but should be pretty rare.

One option might be treat the hand as balanced 21+ and start with 1♥. If responds bids 1♠ (DN), one option is a 1N rebid; otherwise opposite a super positive show the hand as balanced with 4=4 in the minors.

[straube]

Yeah, that makes sense. I expect that's what Adam does.

For my version I've written that the systemic bid is to treat this as single-suited diamonds, but I'll describe it as balanced if I have a poor diamond suit and/or a stiff spade honor.

[straube]

ok, I've abandoned this idea and am looking for input on the following.

Let's say that at the point of opener's 3C bid he has shown a single-suited hand with clubs and is GF. At this same point, I know that
responder has either 0-4 or 9+ hcps. I also know that responder doesn't have 9+ with a 5-cd major unless he has some 5332 pattern.

For continuations, I'm thinking...

3D-DN or 9+ without a good bid. The 9+ has to do something dramatic next round...like raise 3N to 4N or something.
.....3H-3 hearts
.....3S-3 spades
.....3N-natural, could have a 3-cd major but wants to grab the declaration.
3H-DN 6+H
3S-DN 6+S
3N-DN 6+D
4C-fit, 9+
4D-natural, 9+

Now a different problem. Opener is at the bid of 3H and has shown a GF hand with 5+D and 4C. Again, responder can have 0-4 or 9+ but if 9+ he won't have an unbalanced hand with a 5-cd major.

3S-DN or 9+ without a good bid
.....3N-natural
3N-DN, 6+S
4C-fit, 9+
4D-fit, 9+

I guess part of what I'm asking is whether my decision to only show a 6-cd major with a DN hand makes sense. Responder's 5-cd majors tend to be very crappy and I ran into a hand last night where even playing a 6-2 major suit fit went down when 3N would have made.

Maybe I have better use for bids than showing majors at all...like differentiating between DN and positives.

I'm also deciding that if responder has 9+ and some 5M332 he won't bother trying to show that.

Also, I'm presuming that if responder has a 9+ hand, 3N can't be played.