[inquiry]

Thanks to sdebois for providing this link to an english description for German Moscito (written by Peter Buchen et. al. 1993):

http://www.diku.dk/hjemmesider/studerende/...man-moscito.pdf

I am going to try to learn German Moscito. To aid in this attempt, I would like this thread to deal with the construction of a consistent version that most of the moscito trainers can agree with. The notes above are old (circa 1993), so by the end of this thread, I hope we will have updated them to include more recent innovations without going overboard with too much stuff that is not allowed in, say, the ACBL. But one quick change the trainers seem to agree on is to drop the SPECIFIC ASKING BIDS found in the German notes.

To get this mission off I will state that what I think should still be in for this BBO-forum version of german moscito and then start some questions so that the system can be shaped up a little. All of Sections 1-7 (pages 1.1-7.3) of the notes (with the possible exception of the Jump Break out... is there a better way for that, say immediate how many keycards outside this suit?) are in.

This gets us up to the 2H and higher bids, as well as the control asking bids and specific asking bids. What should these 2H+ bids show? In addition, clearly Control asking bid stays, and SAB is gone, being replace by denial cue bidding. I assume for the denial cue bids, the relay ask for you to bid suit in which you DONT have a control, up the line, in typical moscito fashion...the first step =your longest suit (or higher with equal), the second step is your second longest suit, etc.

So, say you have shown 5H-4S-3C-1D distribution and 4 controls. Partner now bids 4C as starting denial cue-bidding. A 4D bid would DENY a heart A or K, a 4H bid would promise a heart control (since 4D not bid) and deny a spade control, a 4NT bid would show controls in both long suits, but deniy one in clubs.

Question. Do you deny a control if holding both AK as in ultimate club?

I hope the people who actually play mosciot will help this thread grow into a useful resourse, please refer to sections of the German - notes circa 1993 that you specifically think need to be changed, so we can use those notes as a starting point.

Ben

[inquiry]

Since this is a thread about learning moscito, I thought I would post some of the hands I have experienced. These are not selected for any reason other than 1) Feedback from the trainers on what the auction really should be, and 2) demo to others considering trying moscito.

For my post, assume BBF-version of German moscito (link above to notes) as being developed in this thread. This means the right bid on these hands may change over time as this thread develops. .
IMPS, all vul

AKJ932
K4
74
KT8

Q
AJ865
A653
Q94


1H (4+H) 1S* (* will mean relay in this thread)
2C (D's) 2D*
2N 3C* (Luis points out in reply#5, that 2N is wrong,
3H 3NT the correct bid would have been 3D over 2D)
Pass

In moscito, the cheapest bid after partner opens, is often a relay (exceptions include passed hand responses and 1C-1D, and 1NT-2C). 1NT

1H carried three pieces of information. 1) 9-14 pts, 2) 4 plus hearts, and 3) importantly (need to alert), 3 or fewer spades.

1S* was a relay seeking additional info, it showed 12+Hcp and is at least game invitiational. Over 1S*, 1NT would have shown a balanced minimum, so 2C shows the higher second suit (in this case this has to be diamonds). 2D* was another relay, and opener know tells his exact distribution using what is know as the S-2 scheme. Using the S-2 Scheme, the responder to the relay request has to describe his holding in one of three ways…. longer lower suit (canape) by bidding 2H, equal suit length (by bidding 2S), longer higher suit (by bidding 2N or possibly higher). Here, hearts are longer AND his two side suits are not equal length (not 2-2 in the blacks or 1-1 in the blacks for instance), so he bids 2NT (with equal in the short suits and longer hearts, he would have bid 3C).

3C* is a further relay asking for opener for his short suit and/or specific distribution. Here, you know that hearts are longer than diamonds, and that the two black suits are not equal length (since 2NT instead of 3C). So opener shows his short suit. If it is clubs, he bids the first step. If it is spades, he shows his exact distribution starting with the second step. The most common distributions first. so 3H showed 5431 with still spade, the steps are 5431, 5431, 6421, 6430, 7420, 7510, 8410.

Here I bailed, in 3NT (which is always to play in moscito).

Did I do this right? People who know moscito are invited to include hands in this thread with some useful explaination to aid in learning this system and fine tuning the BBF version hopefully that will comeout at the a very long thread lasting months.

Ben

[hrothgar]

I am not convinced that German Moscito is the right way to go.
While the system may look simplier at first glance, there is a lot of hidden complexity that is not necessarily apparant to players unfamiliar with the system.

For example consider the response structure over the Strong Club opening bid. Modern MOSCITO uses 1D:positive, 1S Negative. German MOSCITO uses the old fashioned 1D = Negative, 1H+ = Positive. While the relay structure over modern MOSCITO requires slightly more memory load, most players don't understand how complex opener's rebid schedule can become following the auction 1C - 1D playing German MOSCITO.

Personally, I am not particularly fond of the structure of limited opening bids playing German MOSCITO. I think that you lose far too many opportunities to preempt. You also will wrong side a lot of contracts. However, I can live with it if there is a strong demand.

[luis]

Hi Ben,

Let's start with denial cuebidding. After controls are asked a non 3nt relay bid starts denial cuebbiding. Responder (relayee) then scans his suits in length order. If two suits have the same length or the precise length is unknown (7321 hands) then they are scanned in rank order (s-h-d-c).

The rules are:

First scan:
* Long suits (3+ cards)
- Stop if you have AK or if you don't have the Ace nor the K. Skip
if you have the A or the K.
* Short suits (2- cards)
- Stop if you have the A or K, skip if you have AK or nothing.
Second scan:
* Long suits
- Stop without the Q, skip with the Q
* Short suits
- Stop with the Q, skip without the Q
Third scan:
* Long suits
- Stop without the J, skip with the J
* Short suits
- Stop with the J skip without the J

Quote

So, say you have shown 5H-4S-3C-1D distribution and 4 controls. Partner now bids 4C as starting denial cue-bidding. A 4D bid would DENY a heart A or K, a 4H bid would promise a heart control (since 4D not bid) and deny a spade control, a 4NT bid would show controls in both long suits, but deniy one in clubs.

Yes but 4s is the bid that denies A or K in clubs, 4nt stops in the singleton diamond thus showing a singleton A or K of diamonds.

Quote

Question. Do you deny a control if holding both AK as in ultimate club?

Exactly.

Hope this helps.

[hrothgar]

I admit that I haven't looked at the German MOSCITO notes closely, however, I would be shocked if shape was resolved with a 3H. Symmetric relay systems strive to resolve the same shape hand with the same bid. For example, 5431 hands are (almost) always resloved with a 3D bid.

After 2NT, you know:

Short legged 2 suited
Heats longer than Diamonds
Spade shortage

If this is a 5431, there is only one possibility 1=5=4=3 shape

[luis]

Quote

1S* was a relay seeking additional info, it showed 12+Hcp and is at least game invitiational. Over 1S*, 1NT would have shown a balanced minimum, so 2C shows the higher second suit (in this case this has to be diamonds). 2D* was another relay, and opener know tells his exact distribution using what is know as the S-2 scheme. Using the S-2 Scheme, the responder to the relay request has to describe his holding in one of three ways…. longer lower suit (canape) by bidding 2H, equal suit length (by bidding 2S), longer higher suit (by bidding 2N or possibly higher). Here, hearts are longer AND his two side suits are not equal length (not 2-2 in the blacks or 1-1 in the blacks for instance), so he bids 2NT (with equal in the short suits and longer hearts, he would have bid 3C).

Ben,
Almost perfect :-)
But the S2 scheme handling here was wrong. Everything is perfect up to 2d relay entering S2 now the bids are:

2h = canape (d>h)
2s = equal length
2n = h>d and club shortness
3c = h>d and equal shortages
3d+= h>d and spade shortness S2 list

So the bid should have been 3d showing 1-5-4-3 exactly (the first distribution in the S2 list)
As Richard said 5-4-3-1 hands are usually shown at the 3d level :-)

[luis]

About opening bids

I'd suggest to play 1c through 2c as in the notes (2c =majors) etc. Then 2d+ openings can be played as you want, with my pd we shifted all the three suited hands to 2x openings to simplify the relay structure and have more bidding room since three suiters are not that common, besides that showing a three suiter inmediately gives us a lot of competitive advantage.

We play:
2d = Three suited hand with 4 or 5 clubs
2h = Weak 2 in hearts or three suited hand with short clubs (always 4+h)
2s = Weak 2 in spades
2n = 8-11 Minors (frequently 5/4)

Many other options can be played like
2d = Multi
2h/2s = Weak 2's with 5 cards
2n = whatever

My approach is less agressive but removing the three suiters from the relay structure is really a good idea, believe me.

About Richard comment about 1c auction:
- Maybe 1d positive is more efficient but simplicity is the key to start learning and the 1c structure of German moscito is 100% symetrical to all the relay structures used after 1d,1h,1s so it's very easy to learn. I'd strongly recommend starting with this structure.

[hrothgar]

Quick comment:

Most of the Symmetric Relay variants that I have seen show suits S > H > D > C, however, the also use High Shortage First / Lower Length First for resolution.

So, in this case

1H - 1S* 1H = 4+ Hearts
2C - 2D* 2C = Hearts and Diamonds
2N - 3C* 2NT = 5+ Hearts, 4 Diamonds, Spades shortness
3D 3D = 1=5=4=3 shape

[inquiry]

1) To the question of something other than German Moscito as a base?

I think for me, no. The reason is several fold. One, of the versions I have seen, german appears the easiest to learn. I think learning something you can play as a starting point is better than going whole hog with something more complicated. If I like German and find partners who can play it, maybe I will modify it after gaining experience with it. But of course, I can only speak for myself.

2) Hrothgar latest post suggesting short suits should be shown using "High Shortage First" is exactly opposite to what is given in German Moscito notes. This kind of varation is what I am trying to short circuit with getting a thread like this started. Find common ground for students like me, so that we can play with other students/trainers without having to learn 10 different variations.

3) As for the 2H and higher, I see that Luis changed the RCO bids. This is fine with me, I didn't like them anyway (which is why I left them out). I was surprised to see that he dropped 2D as multi, as I thought that would have been left in. But Luis made an interesting comment.... removing the three suiters from the relay structure is really a good idea, believe me.

I too wondered about this 3 suited thing, where sometimes 3 suiters was treated as one suiters, sometimes as 2 suiters, and sometimes as balanced (1NT) openings, and also as equal residue despite 40 in the residue suits. So clearly, then, if you open 2D and 2H with all three suiters, you solve one problem, but perhpas create ohters. For one thing, the relay responses change since the three suiters are removed from S1, S2 and ER2 auctions. For another, when you open 2H, your partner doesn't know if you are weak two or sound opening hand with a three suiter.

I think we would need to hear more about this treatment, and how it affects other bids, and have some input from other knowledgable people on alternative opening bids for 2H/2S/2NT. Clearly the simpliest approach might be to use 2D as multi, and 2H/2S/2NT as something else... What other ideas are out there that are easy to use ?

Ben

[hrothgar]

Ben brings up a couple of useful questions:

The first is the relationship between the openings bids of 2D+ and the rest of the MOSCITO system. Here is my understanding. Sartaj may be able to provide some more information:

In traditional MOSCITO, a relay response to a constrcutive opening was strong, artificial, and forcing showing game invitational+ values. This could be somewhat awkward, particularly when RR zoomed to 2S+ immediately following the relay. [In plain english, if RR had a single suited hand, there was a lot of trouble sorting out range below the safety level]

Accordingly a decision was made to offload minimum strength single suited hands from the constructive opening strucutre. If a player held a single suited hand with 7-10 HCP and 6+ cards in a major, he should open 2D rather than 1M. If you decide to tinker with the preemptive opening structure, you will need to figure out some way of dealing with this same problem.

[hrothgar]

As to three suiters:

The Symmetric relay structure has a lot of very good qualities to it, however, I have never found the mechanisms to describe 3 suiters t be nealy as intuitive as those for 2 suiters or 1 suiters.

Three suiters are rare. Any "elegant" solution to decrease the memory load would harm the efficiency of the overall system.

[luis]

Just in case someone is interested the structure over 2d+ bids we use is the following:

2d (three suited hand with 4 or 5 clubs)
2h/2s/3d/3h/3s etc... Pass or correct if the short suit is the one bid.
3n/4h/4s = to play
3c/4c/5c = to play, preemptive
2n = asking bid
3c = 4441 shape
3d = asks for shortage
3h/3s/3n = shortage in d,h,s
3d = 5 cards in diamonds
3h = asks for shortage
3s = void in h, 3n = void in spades
3h = 5 hearts
3s = asks for shortage
3n = void in d, 4c = void in s
3s = 5 spades and 0 diamonds
3n = 5 spades and 0 hearts
4c/4d/4h+ = 5 clubs and void in d,h,s
Then a relay asks for controls and denial cuebids are used.

2h = Three suited with short clubs or weak 2 in h
3h/4h etc = preemptive
3c/4c/5c = pass or correct if short clubs
2nt = asking bid
3c = 4441 shape, singleton club
3d = weak 2 in h
3h = 5-4-4-0
3h = 4-5-4-0
3s = 4-4-5-0

[inquiry]

Quote

Just in case someone is interested the structure over 2d+ bids we use is the following:

2d (three suited hand with 4 or 5 clubs)
2h/2s/3d/3h/3s etc... Pass or correct if the short suit is the one bid.
3n/4h/4s = to play
3c/4c/5c = to play, preemptive
2n = asking bid
3c = 4441 shape
3d = asks for shortage
3h/3s/3n = shortage in d,h,s
3d = 5 cards in diamonds
3h = asks for shortage
3s = void in h, 3n = void in spades
3h = 5 hearts
3s = asks for shortage
3n = void in d, 4c = void in s
3s = 5 spades and 0 diamonds
3n = 5 spades and 0 hearts
4c/4d/4h+ = 5 clubs and void in d,h,s
Then a relay asks for controls and denial cuebids are used.

2h = Three suited with short clubs or weak 2 in h
3h/4h etc = preemptive
3c/4c/5c = pass or correct if short clubs
2nt = asking bid
3c = 4441 shape, singleton club
3d = weak 2 in h
3h = 5-4-4-0
3h = 4-5-4-0
3s = 4-4-5-0

I wanted them, thanks luis. I assume now that all the three suited responses after 1H/1S/1NT/2C are gone if you adopt this schedule. But that raises an interesting question. Do you respond to 1C with 2D and 2H to show these three suited hands at once as responder, or do you revert back to the other schedule and use these only for opening bids? And if you do, what do you do with the S1 hand with clubs? If you have to memorize the 3 suited hands for the 1C auction anyway, is there any real advantage for forgoing them on the opening bid?

Ben

[luis]

When we open 1c we use a very simple approach to identify three suiters:

1c - 2nt = three suited hand short in a major
3c = relay
3d = short h
3h = relay
3n = 4441
4c/4d/4h = 5-0-4-4, 4-0-5-4, 4-0-4-5
3h = short s
3s = relay
3n = 4441
4c/4d/4h = 0-5-4-4, 0-4-5-4, 0-4-4-5

And we use the "extra" space in the 1c-1h structure to show three suiters show to a minor

1c 1h (4+ spades)
1s* 1n (4+ hearts)
2c* 2d = three suiter
2h = relay
2s = short clubs
2n = relay
3c = 4441
3d,3h,3s = club void 5 sp,he,di
2n = short diamonds
3c = relay
3d = 4414
3h,3s,3n = diamond void 5sp,he,cl
2h+ = S2 with spades and hearts

With this approach three suiters are completely wiped out of the S1 and S2 schemes and thus you have more bidding space for common hands and the relay structure becomes even easier to memorize.
You just have to remember that 1c-2n is the two suiter short to any major and with a minor shortage you bid both majors first and then the 2d bid with 2h+ in S2 as usual.

[inquiry]

Here is a hand that cost me a team match and buried me in 3rd in a team event many years ago. My partner and I should have easily gotten it right playing standard, but didn't. How would this be bid in german moscito? Here is my quess, but I am not all that happy with it.

T9543
AT
K86543
void


AKQ82
KJ982
Q
J5


1C 2S (two suiter, weak, spades and a minor)
2N* 3C (diamonds and spades)
3D* 4H (5-2-6-0)
4S* 5C (K diamonds, no Q, no Ace)
6S Pass

questions. Does 2S promise an honor (A, K or Q) in both suits? 2, Is 4S really a relay asking for quality of the longer suit (in this case diamonds)? and 3) finding parnter has no top spade (you have AKQ), and only diamond queen, and a club void, do you risk 6S on the assumption partner has the heart ACE for his 5-8 hcp?

How would you bid this hand?

How did the bidding go when I played this hand? I held north and jumped to 4C (splinter) which north helpfully doubled. My partner instead of pass to allow me to redbl to show first round control, bid 4NT immediately. Perhaps I should have shown one ace and a void, but I thought if he was all that interested in a void, he would have passed 4Cx. So I showed one ACE and we stopped in 5S losing the match.

[the hog]

Some musings:

I think you are better off retaining the original 3 suited symmetric structure
viz

1C 1H
1S 1NT
2C 2D = 3 suiter short minor

1C 2C
2D 2H = 3 suited short Major

And over limited openings

1H 1S*
1NT 2C*
2D 2H*
2S 3 suited short m

1S 1N*
2C 2D*
2H 2S*
2NT 3 suited short H

As the 3 suiters are comparatively rare it is a total waste of bids and very inefficient to have special 2 level bids showing them.

The original symmetric structure as devised by Roy Kerr showed H/M/L shortages. Marston-Burgess changed this in their strong pass system to L/M/H shortage ,and Paul has changed back to H/M/L shortage. I have discussed the reasons for changes with him and their really is no good reason. Spoke to Roy Kerr at the beginning of this year and he pointed out that there is a slight theoretical adv to showing H/M/L, but it is only slight. I don't care which one you use, but it is crucial that we agree on one or else the whole shape structure gets stuffed.

Control Asks

Symmetric relay had 2 relays - step = weak relay, "Are you min or max for the bidding so far?" Step +1 = relay for AK controls. Not efficient!

Early versions of Moscito had 2 control asks step = AKQ, step +1 = AK.
This proved unwieldy.

Peter Buchen and Bruce Neill spent a lot of time on this and came up with
After shape
step = relay for AKQ controls
Others except for 4D end signal = RKCB
This method has proven very effective

With DCBs you stop holding 0 or 3

Also strongly suggest that in dcb you do not look at s/ton Qs and Ks - its too hard

In the learning process, the relay structure and final resolution should be the same over limited openings and over 1C. This makes it easy. For this reason I am not enamoured by Luis' 2 openings as the relays are not intuitive.

You could easily play an early Moscito structure which is very close to a legal version.
1C = 15+
1D = no 4M
1H = H
1S = S
1NT = both Ms

Or the original version

1D = both Ms
1H = H
1S = S
1NT = flat 11-14
2C = 6C or 5C+4D
2D = 6D or 5D+4C
While the above is not the most efficient, it does have the advantage of simplicity.

Re Notation

May I suggest that we use the abbrvs R for relayer and RR for Relay Responder and the * to denote a relay.


Addendum

The other thing I noticed on re reading this thread is that Luis appears to use the Reverser (2H) to show that the Lower ranking suit is longer. It is usually used to denote that the Higher ranking suit is longer. Again we will need to settle on this.

As far as other 2 level openings above 2D are concerned, I don't think it matters too much what you play. There are all sorts of odds and sods here.

Ron.

[the hog]

Response HCPs Description
2H 5–8 2-suiter (Hearts + other)
2S 5–8 2-suiter (Spades + minor)
2NT 9+ 6+ solid suit; no outside A/K
3C 5–8 1-suiter (Hearts)
3D 5–8 1-suiter (Spades)
3H 5–8 1-suiter (Clubs)
3S 5–8 1-suiter (Diamonds)
3NT 12+ Solid suit + outside A/K’s


that 2H - 2S 2NT shows Hearts and Spades.
snipped
The relay responses for the 1-suiters are as follows:
1st-relay Asks for suit length; 1st-step = 6 etc.
2nd-relay Asks for shortage; 1st-step = none, 2nd-step = low-$, etc.
(1st-step = low-$, if length greater than 7)
3rd-relay Asks for suit strength; 1st-step = 5 pts in suit, etc.

Just downloaded German Moscito from your link, Ben.
The above looks weird and inefficient and does not enable you to find exact shape. However....

Also the "impossible negative" is a really poorly designed concept and is heavily liable to pre emption. Do you really play this Luis?, Knowing you, its hard to believe you would play this as these concepts are so poorly designed and inefficient. Surely you have modified this.

[moscito-d]

Hi folks,

as it happens, I am one of the authors of German Moscito. A lot has been changed since the version you are referring to, especially break-outs and the asking-bids / denial que section.

Unfortunately, at some time we decided that it would be easier for us to maintain the script in german, so there is no current english version. The latest german version is available here: http://www.trsteiner...cito2002_20.pdf

Of course I'd also like to share our experiences playing the system, answer questions and give reasons for or system design. However, I will be on vacation for 2 weeks from saturday on. So be patient. :-)

Looking forward to an interesting discussion,

René

[luis]

Quote

Also the "impossible negative" is a really poorly designed concept and is heavily liable to pre emption. Do you really play this Luis?, Knowing you, its hard to believe you would play this as these concepts are so poorly designed and inefficient. Surely you have modified this.

We quickly dumped the impossible negative to the trashcan :-). As I mentioned we mantained the opening bids because they are legal under our local regulations and because I specially like the 2c opening with majors. We mantained the relay structure pulling the three suiters away. Then we changed all the asking bids by a generic CAB followed by denial cuebidding. And we modified all the 2d+ openings too.

[luis]

Rene,

Nice to see you here :-) we've been playing a modified version of German Moscito in Argentina for two years. We changed a lot of things and maybe that's already changed in the 2002 version but I can't read German, do you know any volunteer that may want to translate the 2002 version into english? Maybe then we can start discussing and improving to reach the BBO German-Moscito standard that Ben suggested :-)

Luis