[luke warm]

#1.
♠AQ432
♥3
♦KQT3
♣982

1♠ (3♥) 3♠ (4♥)
??

and

#2.
♠AQ432
♥982
♦KQT3
♣4

i should have made it a poll, but i forgot .... same bidding, both hands... these hands are similar and seem easy, but there are different philosophies on how to bid them .... if you wanna play, pls say *why* you bid as you do... thx

[mike777]

4S both

I assume 3s was invite under pressure not game force.
Ready to miss underpoint slams on both

IF partner has a 7 LTC game force hand we will have a nice chat at bar later.

[HeartA]

mike777, on Apr 27 2005, 07:32 PM, said:

4S both

I assume 3s was invite under pressure not game force.
Ready to miss underpoint slams on both

IF partner has a 7 LTC game force hand we will have a nice chat at bar later.

I think I would bid 4♠ for both hands, more confident with hand #2 though. If, for some reason, I want to be conservative, I might pass with hand #1.

[beatrix45]

The first hand is no more than a good minimum in terms of playing strength and high cards. I have no sixth spade; my LAW situation is unknown. PARD KNOWS ABOUT MY HEART SHORTAGE. Plus, she may have been under pressure to bid 3♠ in the first place. She will know what to do. For all these reasons, I PASS.

The second hand contains a nice surprise - the stiff club - and partner is marked with short hearts. Big, big, big difference. Now my diamond holding takes on a new luster as partner almost has to have a fit, say 3-1-4-5 or else have a fourth spade: 4-2-3-4 at worst. It could be a lot better than that. Unless there are 48 HCP in this deck, somebody (maybe everybody) is bidding on distribution. I bid 4♠.

By the way, the last time I heard this auction go 4♥ - Pass - Pass - Pass, Pierre Trudeau was Prime Minister and Anne Murray was in pig tails.

[Double !]

Oh, yes, I remember some article about how to go about arriving at 4S in a competitive auction under the assumption that P showed a limit raise or better setting up a forcing pass situation. With one hand P would dbl, perhaps to show the lim raise ( i forget) and in the other P just bids the game while opener initially passes to allow P to clarify his/her hand.

Not sure that applies to this hand, though. Seems like the issue is what subsequent bids might mean if the opps don't sell out to 4♠ which seems right to bid with both hands, more comfortably with hand 2 where heart ruffs are taken in shorter trump hand. Is this an issue of which hand is shown by pass and then pull the dbl as opposed to a direct 4S bid? Does pass show a weaker hand? If so, does opener sit a double of 4Hts? especially with shortness in Hts...P did not promise the world or even game by bidding 3S. Can't wait to hear discussion about this one....lacking considerable discussion about such situations with P, especially at imps where I can afford a small but not a large swing, 4S seems to be the initial answer....does pass and pull show a stronger hand willing to consider bidding 5 if the opps bid again?

[pclayton]

Whenever its close, bid 4♠ over 4♥. Several ways to win.

[Double !]

oh, wonderful, now i have a new dish of food next to my name. so much for any diet.

[bridge2k]

4S for both. Accroding to LAW, the only scenario to lose score is both side makes 9 tricks only. And it looks more than 18 total tricks in some scenarios. So always favor 4S here.

[whereagles]

Well, I take it 3S was mildly invitational.

In hand 1 pard should have a decent hand, since he rates to have a few hearts. A 4333 shape and 10 scattered points wouldn't surprise me. The points appear to split 20-20, so pass seems good (eventually double if you feel lucky).

In hand 2 pard might have streched a bit to bid 3S given he has heart shortage. In this case there's a real chance 4H makes and 4S is a good save. I'd go for 4S here. It might even make!

[luke warm]

nice analysis by all... here's what rubens says about this, and similar hands, in his 'secrets' book

"it is the partner with length in the enemy trump suit who is best able to judge the combined offensive/defensive potential... on hand #1, you should pass.. you have no idea who can make what, but partner, who presumeably has some length in hearts, may know...he will know that you have a singleton heart from his own holding and will know whether he has defensive honors opposite, or none...

on hand #2 you should bid 4♠... it's true that partner may have his power in clubs, however you know you have no strength in hearts (which would be a defensive hand) opposite his singleton... when you have length in their suit, you have the right to make the decision.. when you are short, you're just guessing"

by the way, the reason i found this interesting is that i've always been taught the opposite - the hand with shortness should make the decision... i find rubens' reasoning sounder

This post has been edited by luke warm: 2005-April-28, 05:29

[beatrix45]

luke warm, on Apr 28 2005, 04:02 AM, said:

by the way, the reason i found this interesting is that i've always been taught the opposite - the hand with shortness should make the decision... i find rubens' reasoning sounder

Thanks for the posting. It makes an excellent point. One additional thought: only the hand long in the opponent's suit knows if any high cards are wasted there. Long before the LAW came to town we knew this was important, but now we can see its full significance.

[Double !]

This was a good post. Thanks for the kick in the u-no-what about the need to brush up on some of this. The overall topic including the hands in question can be found on pages 64 thru 67 in Ruben's book, still IMO one of the best books ever written about evaluation and decision making. Tx Lukewarm.

[mikestar]

whereagles, on Apr 28 2005, 10:02 AM, said:

Well, I take it 3S was mildly invitational....

This is a key point: under pressure, 3S ranges from a good single raise to a bad limit raise--with a good limit raise partner will bid 4S as a two way shot.

So we are not in a forcing pass situation, but that's OK, as passing out 4H can be correct: whenver 4H makes but 4S is too expensive, 4H float is par. When both 4H and 4S go down, double is best but we don't lose much by passing as they won' go down a lot in most cases. The only bad results are when 4S makes or is a cheap save.

So with hand #1, I pass--if partner has heart wastage, defending is best. If partner has no wastage, he can take the push to 4S himself. Also consider that partner might be max with a couple of heart cards--then he can crack 4H and 4S still doesn't make.

Hand #2 is another kettle of fish: I know there is no heart wastage, so it is very likely that 4S is a make or a cheap save.

[han]

I play 3S here as constructive but not a good invite. With a sound invite, just bid game (I think that Robson and Segal recommend this in "partnership bidding").

With (1) it is highly unlikely that we can make 4S, so I pass. With (2) the chances are much better: I can ruff hearts in partner's hand, and I have nothing wasted. Therefore, I bid 4S on (2).

Also, they are likely to take more tricks on (2) than on (1), since we know that they have a verry pure fit. On (1) partner may have some heart tricks.

[han]

I see I basically wrote the same thing as mikestar, sorry.

[P_Marlowe]

1)4S
The my shortness makes it likely that partners 3S bid
was based on HCP rather that pure fit, but Pass is an
sensible LA, because partner may have streched already.

2) Pass, my length makes it likly that partners 3S bid
was based on shape on fit.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[luke warm]

and that's the way i was taught... i prefer rubens' reasoning... let the partner who knows something about the defensive values of the hand make the decision