[virgosrock]

Seriously, is this an overcall? They'll get to game anyways but I am talking about the overcall in a system where sacrificing is not an option because it will probably read 20+ "points"

vrock

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[LBengtsson]

i bid 1d. if opps go to 3nt i want a ♦ lead

[virgosrock]

LBengtsson, on 2017-November-11, 08:56, said:

i bid 1d. if opps go to 3nt i want a ♦ lead

Hmm.... if QJT etc. ok. Maybe this is the modern treatment.
You want a d lead in MP or IMP or MoneyBridge?

thanks
vrock

[The_Badger]

I'm bidding 1♦ too. It's a grim hand, and a grim bid, and it doesn't disrupt the opponents' bidding in the slightest, but at this vulnerability, and assuming the ♣K is worth a trick - no guarantee mind you - I'd rather communicate my longest suit to partner than leave him on a guess to a lead. The lack of intermediates and 4254 shape make it more of an 8 count than a 9, but it's the only time you might get into the auction, so I'd rather be aggressive at favourable vulnerability than passive. At red/red, red/white it's a definite no-no, no-go.

[virgosrock]

The_Badger, on 2017-November-11, 12:07, said:

I'm bidding 1♦ too. It's a grim hand, and a grim bid, and it doesn't disrupt the opponents' bidding in the slightest, but at this vulnerability, and assuming the ♣K is worth a trick - no guarantee mind you - I'd rather communicate my longest suit to partner than leave him on a guess to a lead. The lack of intermediates and 4254 shape make it more of an 8 count than a 9, but it's the only time you might get into the auction, so I'd rather be aggressive at favourable vulnerability than passive. At red/red, red/white it's a definite no-no, no-go.

MP/IMP/Rubber change your thoughts?

thanks
vrock

[zhasbeen]

virgosrock, on 2017-November-11, 17:14, said:

MP/IMP/Rubber change your thoughts?

thanks
vrock

Don't play rubber, but don't care for the bid at MP or IMPS. While it could work out on some hands, I'm so sure that I'd want the suit lead. More importantly, however, if partner makes a habit of overcalling on hands like this he could become hard to play with. I would always be wondering, "what's he got this time?" Should I lead his suit, should I bid or just keep quiet? There would be too wide a range for what he might have for his overcall. Granted, with the vulnerability as it was partner would be more prepared for a weaker hand.
Maybe not so bad with passed partner at that vulnerability, but I wouldn't do it in this case.

[virgosrock]

zhasbeen, on 2017-November-12, 08:33, said:

Don't play rubber, but don't care for the bid at MP or IMPS. While it could work out on some hands, I'm so sure that I'd want the suit lead. More importantly, however, if partner makes a habit of overcalling on hands like this he could become hard to play with. I would always be wondering, "what's he got this time?" Should I lead his suit, should I bid or just keep quiet? There would be too wide a range for what he might have for his overcall. Granted, with the vulnerability as it was partner would be more prepared for a weaker hand.
Maybe not so bad with passed partner at that vulnerability, but I wouldn't do it in this case.

It also places some degree of length and hcp. Which is a BIG negative.

vrock

[Stephen Tu]

I guess I don't really understand your big objections to the overcall. If you overcall on a wide range, it is harder to place hcp than when you overcall with a tight range, since you would have made the call with or without high card x so they are still guessing which of you has it.

Even auction like this, it shows how when partner can jam it creates problems for opponents. East had to guess what to do. He might have caught partner with long clubs short hearts. Maybe was supposed to double then pull 3nt to hearts. In any case might have caught West with less suitable min and go down. No more delicate invitational auctions when the space has been removed.

Plus gave south, if more shapely, possibility of favorable vul sac.

Sound overcall style can help you on some things like bid misfit games on power, and penalty double opening side if they get too high. But it give many fewer problem to opp who have to deal with auction being at like 2s or higher when it come back around for opener's rebid, many fewer opportunity for them to make a bad guess.

These days, very few of the top players are waiting for good hands to make 1 level overcalls, especially white.

[virgosrock]

Stephen Tu, on 2017-November-13, 12:16, said:

I guess I don't really understand your big objections to the overcall. If you overcall on a wide range, it is harder to place hcp than when you overcall with a tight range, since you would have made the call with or without high card x so they are still guessing which of you has it.

Even auction like this, it shows how when partner can jam it creates problems for opponents. East had to guess what to do. He might have caught partner with long clubs short hearts. Maybe was supposed to double then pull 3nt to hearts. In any case might have caught West with less suitable min and go down. No more delicate invitational auctions when the space has been removed.

Plus gave south, if more shapely, possibility of favorable vul sac.

Sound overcall style can help you on some things like bid misfit games on power, and penalty double opening side if they get too high. But it give many fewer problem to opp who have to deal with auction being at like 2s or higher when it come back around for opener's rebid, many fewer opportunity for them to make a bad guess.

These days, very few of the top players are waiting for good hands to make 1 level overcalls, especially white.

I'd be curious to see the results of a poll of top players on this overcall. now if you do 1d-2c on shaded values i can see it. you force the negative double.
if you overcall 1c with 1s with shaded values I can see it since you are again forcing the negative double.

vrock

[gwnn]

1D. well done gibbo.

[zhasbeen]

Stephen Tu, on 2017-November-13, 12:16, said:

I guess I don't really understand your big objections to the overcall. If you overcall on a wide range, it is harder to place hcp than when you overcall with a tight range, since you would have made the call with or without high card x so they are still guessing which of you has it.

Even auction like this, it shows how when partner can jam it creates problems for opponents. East had to guess what to do. He might have caught partner with long clubs short hearts. Maybe was supposed to double then pull 3nt to hearts. In any case might have caught West with less suitable min and go down. No more delicate invitational auctions when the space has been removed.

Plus gave south, if more shapely, possibility of favorable vul sac.

Sound overcall style can help you on some things like bid misfit games on power, and penalty double opening side if they get too high. But it give many fewer problem to opp who have to deal with auction being at like 2s or higher when it come back around for opener's rebid, many fewer opportunity for them to make a bad guess.

These days, very few of the top players are waiting for good hands to make 1 level overcalls, especially white.

I expressed my opinion and thought I made some good points. Who knows, I might start overcalling lighter. I’ve already relaxed my takeout double requirements, e.g. 3-3-2-5, and opened a few no trumps with 2 doubletons. You are a strong player, and I acknowledge that.

That said, I believe that if you play in the robot tournaments as I do, I should not be discounted lightly. I’m talking about the 12-board ACBL tournaments with 1 human and 3 robots. MP% and IMPS are determined by how the humans do playing the same hands with the same robots. The most you can win in a single tournament is .90 master points and I average .42 per.
In 578 tournaments I have 106 wins, and finished in the top 3 in 44.5% of them. They average 25 tables. That means I make up 4% of the average field and win 18.3% of the time. I must be doing something right.
What does it prove? That I’m good at robot tournaments. Nothing more, nothing less. I make some of the ghastliest plays you’ve ever seen, but have a good sense of logic and can make some nice plays that not all players would find when I can hold it together for an hour without spacing out.

On the topic of overcalls, I tend to let the bots take most of the chances when it comes to balancing and light overcalls, although I’ll get in there sometimes. They are actually pretty decent at deciding when and when not to compete to 3 level. One thing I’ve noticed is that they often make a simple raise of a major with 4 trumps, but will complete to 3-level if opponents come in. If I do it I’m liable to end up in 4 or 5, maybe doubled. Whining and complaining aside, the bots and I get along ok.

[zhasbeen]

Regarding taking a poll, I asked a couple guys I know and occasionally play with their opinions.

I asked by email, so there was no bias in my tone. I just gave them the holding, vulnerability, and asked "do you overcall or pass?" Both are gold LM's and competitive in open Flight A events.

Their replies:

I would pass. Sometimes I will overcall with 9 points (or less). However, there must be some reason to overcall such as lead-direction or preemption. In this case:

1. The diamond suit is weak.
2. It’s a poor 9 points given 2 Qs and 2 Js.
3. A 1D bid has zero preemptive value (in fact it has negative preemptive value considering it allows them to double to show both majors).

The other answer:

I tend to agree with ***. I don't feel strongly about this tho, so if we had a partnership agreement that we can overcall with 8 hcp, it wouldn't bother me if my partner chose to overcall. The only advantage I can think of is when partner has 3+ diamonds and it is the only suit we can compete with if the auction gets competitive. Even then, a balancing double might do as well.

........................................................

So here we are. Both are strong players who occasionally play with each other, yet they don't feel exactly the same about this hand. The key is that if you are going to overcall on hands like this you discuss it with your partner. I thoroughly enjoy playing with the guy who is more liberal on the light overcall, even though my general approach is more in line with the top one. I'm sure we'd get many different views if we expanded the poll. It's not always a case of right or wrong.
I realize I can come on a little strong once I take a side..."you will burn in **** if you don't agree with me!" Need to work on that.

[Stephen Tu]

The poll I did over at bridgewinners is running about 62/38 in favor of passing currently. But the bidders include some very good players like Josh Donn/Jim Munday/Leo Lasota. On the other side Kieran Dyke is a passer.

Basically it's a style thing, and although I am a bidder on this I don't think it's at all mandatory. But obviously I don't think it's nuts either.

I personally prefer very aggressive overcalls at the 1 level especially NV. Even on these non space consuming auctions. The neg double doesn't solve everything. What if you are 54/45 in the majors? Do you double or bid your longer suit first? Not always clear what to do. If you double, partner doesn't have 4 cd major, then you might have to guess whether to rebid your long suit at a high level, might not catch partner with 3. If you bid long suit might lose the other. Certainly I'd much rather bid unimpeded then have to deal with a 3d raise, I can handle 45/54/55/64s and have accurate signoff/invite/gf auctions. After 2d/3d raise, a lot of the options disappear.

Overcalling light gets your lead director vs. NT in, lets partner jam the auction with a fit, and saves you from balancing decisions later. If they can penalize you it's at the 1 level and most often they won't, because they have other possibilities to explore and/or they don't know if they get you enough, plus no one plays penalty doubles and opener often doesn't have right hand to reopen with double. I go for 800 at the 1 level like once every 3 years, but pick up so many swings in the interim that I'm not discouraged from overcalling on crap.

As for your questions from earlier, opposite me:
- bid to a LOTT safe level and you are probably fine. If it doesn't make very likely it's a good sac vs the opp's contract. Even if it isn't they don't always find the double, or the best defense to fully take advantage. At IMPS they aren't going to be super eager to double partials into game.
- don't force to game because you have a random 13/14 HCP, you can invite strongly but if I just rebid suit opposite your cue tend to give up without a moose.
- do lead my suit, but vs. suit contract might not lead from ace empty with a decent alternative, because I certainly don't guarantee K and declarer might have it. If I induced a losing lead, oh well, my fault, live by the sword die by the sword.

[zhasbeen]

Stephen Tu, on 2017-November-15, 12:39, said:

The poll I did over at bridgewinners is running about 62/38 in favor of passing currently. But the bidders include some very good players like Josh Donn/Jim Munday/Leo Lasota. On the other side Kieran Dyke is a passer.

Basically it's a style thing, and although I am a bidder on this I don't think it's at all mandatory. But obviously I don't think it's nuts either.

I personally prefer very aggressive overcalls at the 1 level especially NV. Even on these non space consuming auctions. The neg double doesn't solve everything. What if you are 54/45 in the majors? Do you double or bid your longer suit first? Not always clear what to do. If you double, partner doesn't have 4 cd major, then you might have to guess whether to rebid your long suit at a high level, might not catch partner with 3. If you bid long suit might lose the other. Certainly I'd much rather bid unimpeded then have to deal with a 3d raise, I can handle 45/54/55/64s and have accurate signoff/invite/gf auctions. After 2d/3d raise, a lot of the options disappear.

Overcalling light gets your lead director vs. NT in, lets partner jam the auction with a fit, and saves you from balancing decisions later. If they can penalize you it's at the 1 level and most often they won't, because they have other possibilities to explore and/or they don't know if they get you enough, plus no one plays penalty doubles and opener often doesn't have right hand to reopen with double. I go for 800 at the 1 level like once every 3 years, but pick up so many swings in the interim that I'm not discouraged from overcalling on crap.

As for your questions from earlier, opposite me:
- bid to a LOTT safe level and you are probably fine. If it doesn't make very likely it's a good sac vs the opp's contract. Even if it isn't they don't always find the double, or the best defense to fully take advantage. At IMPS they aren't going to be super eager to double partials into game.
- don't force to game because you have a random 13/14 HCP, you can invite strongly but if I just rebid suit opposite your cue tend to give up without a moose.
- do lead my suit, but vs. suit contract might not lead from ace empty with a decent alternative, because I certainly don't guarantee K and declarer might have it. If I induced a losing lead, oh well, my fault, live by the sword die by the sword.

More than anything, I’m afraid that I wouldn’t be able to make good decisions if I played this style. However, just reading your answers to, “As for your questions from earlier…” loosened me up some.
One thing for sure is that I have no doubt that you’d be a tough opponent to go up against.
It took a minute for LOTT acronym to register, but I’m a believer. The challenge is becoming good at determining how many trumps everyone has.

Speaking about getting in there light, last week a lady who has a ton of mp’s opened 1C with a square 11. My partner held a balanced 14 that included AKQ8 of hearts and Q9xx of clubs. He decided to overcall a heart that was followed by a pass. I held:
109xx J AQ10xx Axx. I thought of 1S, before narrowing down to 1NT or 2NT. I finally settled on INT after devaluing my hand slightly because of opening bid on my left. Also, I wasn’t crazy about stiff in partner’s suit, although not so worried with it being the jack. The rest of his hand was QJxx of spades and 2 small diamonds.

I made 3 easily, and not surprisingly we got a bad board. Later, while looking at the hand records, I noticed that no trump was always played from the other side, almost surely because west hadn’t opened with a club. Before then I was questioning my conservative 1NT call. It probably would have gone 1C-1S-1NT-2NT-3NT. Partner thought my call was reasonable.
Regardless of what you think about our bidding, that seemingly innocuous club opening had a big impact. That’s all she did was open a club and never said another word other than “pass”.