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Bid after 3NT 2/1 ACBL

#1 User is offline   dickiegera 

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Posted 2017-November-13, 08:51




Do you agree with EAST 3NT?

What should West do?
Do you play 4 clubs as Stayman or gerber?
Are transfers on ?



Thank you
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#2 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2017-November-13, 09:01

Agree entirely with 3NT; can't see anyone else bidding if you pass. 4 would be, in my personal opinion, pick a major as opposed to Stayman, responder with 5-5M. Never Gerber. Transfer to 4 through 4 by agreement.

Looks like the losing option bidding 3NT as 4 is surely going down, but you're not to know partner has a bust.
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#3 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2017-November-13, 10:18

View PostThe_Badger, on 2017-November-13, 09:01, said:

Agree entirely with 3NT; can't see anyone else bidding if you pass. 4 would be, in my personal opinion, pick a major as opposed to Stayman, responder with 5-5M. Never Gerber. Transfer to 4 through 4 by agreement.

Looks like the losing option bidding 3NT as 4 is surely going down, but you're not to know partner has a bust.


no badger. partner passed. game thin, so i pass 3c not 3nt. more chance points from penalty than part score, game less chance
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#4 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-November-13, 11:20

View PostLBengtsson, on 2017-November-13, 10:18, said:

no badger. partner passed. game thin, so i pass 3c not 3nt. more chance points from penalty than part score, game less chance


partner needs very little to make game, he has even less, pass will most likely get you 150 ish, is that enough ?

Give him QJ9xx, xxxxx, xx, x for example and he could conceivably be much better than that

Depends somewhat on scoring, danger at pairs is that second in others aren't preempting on the QJ8 high suit, so people are playing in 2M scoring 170 and beating you without bidding game.
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#5 User is online   steve2005 

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Posted 2017-November-13, 21:53

View PostLBengtsson, on 2017-November-13, 10:18, said:

no badger. partner passed. game thin, so i pass 3c not 3nt. more chance points from penalty than part score, game less chance

That's resulting. give partner 6 lousy points you have easy 420.
Even slam might be possible but as partner has passed you won't find.
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#6 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2017-November-14, 00:17

View PostLBengtsson, on 2017-November-13, 10:18, said:

no badger. partner passed. game thin, so i pass 3c not 3nt. more chance points from penalty than part score, game less chance


Take a king away I might agree with you, but not as the hand stands with 17HCPs: bidding is compulsory.
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#7 User is offline   JanisW 

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Posted 2017-November-14, 01:31

Hello,

You might even make 4 opposite this spectacular good dummy.
  • you have a reasonable chance to receive a -lead
  • cash AK of , trumps splitting 3-2 (maybe even QJ doubleton, but that's not necessary)
  • K takes care of one -loser, whether ruffed or not, does not matter.
  • Q in N.

And no I do not need to be told, that down 3 is just as likely. Just wanted to add, that if there is play for 4 opposite a 1count, 3 NT could not have been that bad, could it?
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#8 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2017-November-14, 02:19

I have to say that on average when I've tried to pull 3nt with hands like West, I've often caught East with running diamonds, club stop and 9 tricks, with 4H hopeless. Or East with balanced hand and 3nt/4H contracts equally hopeless, at least 3nt isn't doubled. Or if I stayman to find 4-4 fit, 3nt plays better, the suit splits bad because of the preempt/ there is crossruff/etc.

So I've stopped doing it, 3x-3nt ends all auctions unless I have like a self sufficient 7 or 8 bagger. If partner has the balanced hand I hope he turns up with AKx of hearts and the hearts split. Or that spades are an entry.

I certainly wouldn't use 4c as stayman, it's probably better as some sort of hand type/range inquiry (if west were unpassed and bigger things are possible). transfers I suppose are OK.
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#9 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2017-November-15, 07:07

View Postdickiegera, on 2017-November-13, 08:51, said:


Do you agree with EAST 3NT?
What should West do?
Do you play 4 clubs as Stayman or gerber?
Are transfers on ?

Agree with East's 3N although Pass is a good alternative.
Normally, 4 and 4 are transfers, by agreement.
The 3N overcall is wide-ranging. For example, It can have a long minor or be very strong. Hence some players use 4 as an artificial enquiry, requesting elucidation.
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#10 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2017-November-16, 11:52

IMHO 3n is hoping for too much especially at MP. P is passed the odds dramatically favor us NOT making game. That means we should be looking for the best way to (compete in a partial) OR defend. Competing for a partial with this major suit holding seems to border on suicide so passing becomes a clear stand out. The decision to bid at IMPS is closer but still favors pass. Remember that p has heard the bidding and they may still back in (probably with X) and does anyone have a calculator to add up the points for the opps being in 3cx???? The important point here is that when p has the power for 3n to work there is a fair chance they will x (Axxx Qxxx Kxxxx void) and we will be happy we did not bid 3n.
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#11 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2017-November-16, 12:53

View Postgszes, on 2017-November-16, 11:52, said:

IMHO 3n is hoping for too much especially at MP. P is passed the odds dramatically favor us NOT making game.


I ran a simulation and 3NT made 63% double dummy. This is one of those hands where single dummy looks like it should be a lot better if the defenders make a poor opening lead.
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#12 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2017-November-16, 14:51

Two-under transfers are quite good as they allow overcaller to superaccept without bypassing the 4-level:

4=hearts
4=spades
And maybe:
4=both majors
4=diamonds

Maybe they are less useful opposite a passed hand.

OTOH it would also be good to offer choice of game with a major + diamonds. If you play multi-landy you may find it easy to remember that
4=majors
4=one majors
4M=M+diamonds
When did pass become a 4-letter word? --- WinstonM
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#13 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2017-November-16, 16:01

4 = range ask (answer steps in 3 point ranges)
4 = puppet to 4h, to play in whatever
4h/4s/5d = nat, slam try, nf
4nt = strongest invite. inv opposite whatever you think a minimum is (15-17?)
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#14 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2017-November-16, 18:19

View Postjohnu, on 2017-November-16, 12:53, said:

I ran a simulation and 3NT made 63% double dummy. This is one of those hands where single dummy looks like it should be a lot better if the defenders make a poor opening lead.


interesting question how many of that 63% would advancer be able to x in po seat?
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#15 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2017-November-26, 04:03

View Postdickiegera, on 2017-November-13, 08:51, said:

Do you agree with EAST 3NT?

What should West do?
Do you play 4 clubs as Stayman or gerber?
Are transfers on ?



Thank you


1- Yes (auto)
2-Bid 4 followed by 4 if pd bids 4
3-Stayman
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#16 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2017-November-28, 15:26

I am picking an unpopular position for my first BBF bridge post in a long time: I am going to suggest that East ought to pass.

I would always bid 3N as East were partner unpassed, and I admit that I am influenced by the fact that my regular/semi-regular partners tend to open most 11 counts. I would also bid were LHO a passed hand (this is an edit)

I acknowledge that there are a family of hands on which we have game and miss it when I pass. However, as against that:

1. if it goes double on my left, which is entirely plausible from my hand, I have nowhere to go and can expect to be -800 or so

2. some of the hands on which game makes our way are hands on which partner might have opened with a weak 2 bid

3. some of the hands on which game makes are such that he can reopen with a double, and now we are the ones getting (at least) 800. Edit: note that this is a reason why I would bid were LHO a passed hand: it is vanishingly unlikely that he can double as a passed hand. Moreover, once he is a passed hand, it is reasonable to play partner for better values on average than he would hold when LHO is could hold as good or better a hand than I do.

4. the remaining hands on which game is reasonable are a relatively small number, in my entirely subjective view

5. double dummy analyses do not impress me in the least. Having done quite a few of them, I know how vulnerable they are to the constraints one sets, and even were I to agree with the constraints, there is always an element of subjectivity. Thus, on hands where West 'might' but not clearly 'should' reopen....if one wants the overcall to work, one assumes that West passes, and vice versa, and this need not be conscious. In addition, if the only issue is whether we make 3N, then I'd respectfully suggest that we need to look at the West examples and determine not only whether we agree with the original pass, but also whether some of those hands would reopen and how we'd fare then. For those inclined to use double-dummy analysis, and at the risk of sounding condescending, there is a lot of work that needs to be done, and specified for others to understand what you have done, before the data is of any real use.


As for what West would do, I agree entirely with Stephen: I would pass in a heartbeat. This hand reminds me of the only time I ever played with Justin L, on BBO. He overcalled 3N and I sat, fearing he had a long, running minor. Fortunately the opps competed (!) and I backed in with 4M, which worked well when he had the balanced hand. Justin was kind enough to say that he agreed with my pass, tho I am not sure he wasn't just being a good partner :D

As for what West's actions should mean, it depends on agreements. I use 4C as stayman, transfers, and 4S as range-ask, but undiscussed I'd bid 4, natural, were I to bid (which I wouldn't).
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#17 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2017-November-28, 20:05

I think the most important aspect is how the partnership opens. MikeH makes a good argument for those who open aggressively, but for those whose opening require a bit more, 3NT is much more in play.

I think I would have to bid 3N - we tend toward sound openers. After that, I would transfer to the known (expected) 6-2 fit.
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#18 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2017-November-29, 11:52

View PostWinstonm, on 2017-November-28, 20:05, said:

I think the most important aspect is how the partnership opens. MikeH makes a good argument for those who open aggressively, but for those who opening require a bit more, 3NT is much more in play.

I think I would have to bid 3N. After that, I would transfer to the known (expected) 6-2 fit.


Despite the fact that I replied auto 3 NT, reading MikeH convinced me otherwise. I certainly overlooked the fact that pd is coming from pass.

Pd will be short in clubs and will almost always balance with hands that we can make something.
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"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"

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#19 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-November-30, 09:58

View Postdickiegera, on 2017-November-13, 08:51, said:

Do you play 4 clubs as Stayman or gerber?
Are transfers on ?

A good discussion of some possible structures can be found in this thread at BW.

As Helene mentions, one popular family of systems involves the use of 2+-under transfers. In these structures it is normal to play that removing 3NT always shows a slam try. The other major family uses 4 as a size/shape ask of the type outlined by Stephen. You can simplify this to a pure size ask as suggested by wank but most players think that differentiating the balanced hands from the running suit type is important. The 4 enquiry methods are usually, but not always, combined with 4 as a form of end-signal (aka Flint) rather than transfers. Finally, there are plenty of players around that consider playing some exotic system in an auction that is coming up rarely as foolhardy and keep things as simple as possible.

On balance I would suggest that the range/shape enquiry + Flint is probably the way to go but whatever you choose is probably not going to be worth more than a handful of IMPs per decade, so it is not worth getting too worked up about it either way.
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Happy New Year everyone!
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