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opening 3C bid responses

#1 User is offline   Shugart23 

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Posted 2017-August-26, 12:23

Playing canapé combined with strong Club system, the intermediate single suited Club hand is problematic....(we use the 2C bid to show a 3 suited hand)

Contemplating opening this hand 3C, showing 6+ Clubs...good suit...10-15 HCP and forfeiting the weak preemptive 3C opening...If I go this path, Responder already knows I do not have any 4 card suit, else I would have opened the 4 card suit and rebid Clubs to show the canapé..

Does anyone know Schenkin Responses to a 3C opening, or for canapé Players, do you have suggestions as to Responses....I think Schenkin promises a 7+ card Club suit, but I am thinking of 6+....

I appreciate any thoughts/suggestions
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#2 User is offline   Kungsgeten 

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Posted 2017-August-26, 16:08

Some use 3D over a 3C preempt as a puppet to 3H (not quite sure what they do next, but anyway). So maybe something like that?

3C--
3D = Puppet to 3H.
3M = Natural and GF.
3NT = To play.
4C = Preemptive.
4D = Both majors, GF.
4M = To play.

3C--3D; 3H--
Pass = Weak long hearts.
3S = Non-forcing?
3NT = Offer to play, but opener may remove with bad clubs and minimum? Not sure..
4C = Optional RKC (bid 4D with min, otherwise respond keycards).
4D = Natural GF.
4M = GF diamonds + major, not forcing.
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#3 User is offline   Shugart23 

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Posted 2017-August-26, 16:45

I was contemplating 3D response to 3C as Stayman, but looking for a 3 card Major, since Responder knows, Opener has at most a 3 card fragment....maybe
3C-3D-?
3H have heart fragment
3S have spade fragment
3NT have both
4C have neither.......

not sure I like bypassing 3NT, (because why bid 5 of a Minor when I can go down in 3NT)
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#4 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2017-August-26, 17:27

View PostShugart23, on 2017-August-26, 16:45, said:

I was contemplating 3D response to 3C as Stayman, but looking for a 3 card Major, since Responder knows, Opener has at most a 3 card fragment....maybe
3C-3D-?
3H have heart fragment
3S have spade fragment
3NT have both
4C have neither.......

not sure I like bypassing 3NT, (because why bid 5 of a Minor when I can go down in 3NT)

3N-neither (no 3N bypass unless your playing a major, but will wrong-side.
4C-both 6C 1D
4D both 7C 0D
Also, if your memory ok can have 3M=3 of other major.


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#5 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2017-August-26, 17:34

If 3C=intermediate you might be able to do without 4C being pre-emptive, you are already higher than everyone.
Also have 4D, yes could show D but I think can do without and play in NT or C on some hands.
So 4C could use as KC or a general slam try.
4D could ask for shortness.
This treatment isn't common so if find anything in print or internet your lucky.
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#6 User is offline   Shugart23 

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Posted 2017-August-26, 17:45

A problem is the partnership has a hard time knowing or being able to stop at 3 of a Major since Responder doesn't know Opener's strength other than say, 10-15..

Yeah, we would likely use 4D as control asking bid
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#7 User is online   nullve 

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Posted 2017-August-27, 03:01

What are your other openings?
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#8 User is offline   Kungsgeten 

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Posted 2017-August-27, 07:34

In the book "Morotsklövern" from 1978 (translated to Carrot Club, but really Carrot Club is a later version of the system) Sven-Olov Flodqvist has a constructive 3 opening bid. It is very well specified though, and is used in combination with a natural 2 opening. The system uses the following opening bids:

1 = 17+ unbal or 18+ balanced.
1 = 4+ suit and 11-16 hcp. May have longer clubs. 1 is usually unbalanced. 1M may be 12-14 NT.
1NT = 13-17 hcp. If 13-14 then no four card major.
2 = 6+ clubs, 11-16 hcp. If a side suit, then minimal strength (6-7 LTC).
2 = Multi: 21-22 NT without five card suit, or 7-11 with six card major.
2 = 5+ suit and 4+ clubs, 13-16 hcp and 4-5˝ LTC.
2NT = 5+ diamonds and 4+ clubs, 13-16 hcp and 4-5˝ LTC.
3 = Very good suit (at least 5˝ tricks), and quick tricks on the side. Totally at least 7 playing tricks. They describe it as opening 1 and jump rebidding 3 in a natural system, but limited to a maximum of 16 hcp. "The suit must be strong and should preferably contain the ace, example: AKQJxx, AKJTxx, or AQJTxxx".

The continuations are listed as follows:

3---
3 = Asking for major suit stoppers up the line (opener bids 3NT without major suit stopper, after 3 responder can ask for spade stopper by bidding 3). 3 followed by 4 isn't forcing. 3 followed by 4// is a cue bid with clubs as trumps, but is natural and suggestion to play (with five card suit) if it is a raise of a stopper showing major suit bid.
3 = Natural GF. Opener raises or cue bids with Qx or better support. Without support he bids 4 or 3NT.
3NT = To play.
4 = Isn't specified in the book.
4 = Natural slam invitational with long and very good suit.
4 = To play.

"If the opponents enter the bidding, our side's bidding is natural and new suits are forcing. Double is for business."
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#9 User is offline   Shugart23 

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Posted 2017-August-27, 11:34

View Postnullve, on 2017-August-27, 03:01, said:

What are your other openings?


1C strong
1D ..Diamonds or Diamond Canape
1H - Hearts or Heart Canape
1S - Spades or Spade Canape
1NT - 12-15
2C - 3 suited hand
2D - Minors, intermediate
2M shows 5+ M, and 4+ Clubs
2NT - Minors, preemptive
6NT..last hand of the night and I need 900 points
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#10 User is offline   Shugart23 

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Posted 2017-August-27, 11:42

View PostKungsgeten, on 2017-August-27, 07:34, said:

In the book "Morotsklövern" from 1978 (translated to Carrot Club, but really Carrot Club is a later version of the system) Sven-Olov Flodqvist has a constructive 3 opening bid. It is very well specified though, and is used in combination with a natural 2 opening. The system uses the following opening bids:

1 = 17+ unbal or 18+ balanced.
1 = 4+ suit and 11-16 hcp. May have longer clubs. 1 is usually unbalanced. 1M may be 12-14 NT.
1NT = 13-17 hcp. If 13-14 then no four card major.
2 = 6+ clubs, 11-16 hcp. If a side suit, then minimal strength (6-7 LTC).
2 = Multi: 21-22 NT without five card suit, or 7-11 with six card major.
2 = 5+ suit and 4+ clubs, 13-16 hcp and 4-5˝ LTC.
2NT = 5+ diamonds and 4+ clubs, 13-16 hcp and 4-5˝ LTC.
3 = Very good suit (at least 5˝ tricks), and quick tricks on the side. Totally at least 7 playing tricks. They describe it as opening 1 and jump rebidding 3 in a natural system, but limited to a maximum of 16 hcp. "The suit must be strong and should preferably contain the ace, example: AKQJxx, AKJTxx, or AQJTxxx".

The continuations are listed as follows:

3---
3 = Asking for major suit stoppers up the line (opener bids 3NT without major suit stopper, after 3 responder can ask for spade stopper by bidding 3). 3 followed by 4 isn't forcing. 3 followed by 4// is a cue bid with clubs as trumps, but is natural and suggestion to play (with five card suit) if it is a raise of a stopper showing major suit bid.
3 = Natural GF. Opener raises or cue bids with Qx or better support. Without support he bids 4 or 3NT.
3NT = To play.
4 = Isn't specified in the book.
4 = Natural slam invitational with long and very good suit.
4 = To play.

"If the opponents enter the bidding, our side's bidding is natural and new suits are forcing. Double is for business."



Thanks....some good ideas....I need time to mull over the conversation.....I do like the Stayman approach mentioned earlier, looking for the 5-3 fit, at the moment
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#11 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-August-27, 15:49

View PostShugart23, on 2017-August-27, 11:34, said:

1D ..Diamonds or Diamond Canape
2C - 3 suited hand
2D - Minors, intermediate

Move "Minors, intermediate" down to 1; the 3-suiters to 2; and use a natural 2 perhaps?
(-: Zel :-)
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#12 User is offline   Shugart23 

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Posted 2017-August-27, 20:01

View PostZelandakh, on 2017-August-27, 15:49, said:

Move "Minors, intermediate" down to 1; the 3-suiters to 2; and use a natural 2 perhaps?

Having played 3 suited hands both with 2C and 2D, I find the 2C far better *with 2D being the asking bid...much more room).....Do you know if opening 2NT with single suited Club hand is allowed in ACBL ?
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#13 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-August-27, 23:47

View PostShugart23, on 2017-August-27, 20:01, said:

Having played 3 suited hands both with 2C and 2D, I find the 2C far better *with 2D being the asking bid...much more room).....Do you know if opening 2NT with single suited Club hand is allowed in ACBL ?

From my reading of the GCC, you could use 2NT for the minors hand but not for the club one-suiter.

2 is certainly better than 2 for the 3-suited hands. Against that 2 is much better than 3 for the one-suited club hands, which also happen to be more common. There may be a better solution but I am confident that this wide-ranging 3 opening is not it.
(-: Zel :-)
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#14 User is offline   Shugart23 

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Posted 2017-August-28, 04:17

View PostZelandakh, on 2017-August-27, 23:47, said:

From my reading of the GCC, you could use 2NT for the minors hand but not for the club one-suiter.

2 is certainly better than 2 for the 3-suited hands. Against that 2 is much better than 3 for the one-suited club hands, which also happen to be more common. There may be a better solution but I am confident that this wide-ranging 3 opening is not it.


We actually currently have the intermediate long club hand buried in our 1D opening and then on the rebid of 2C, Responder knows it is a long suited Club hnad....with a 5C and 4D hand we either pass, bid 2D, or 1NT depending on the card holding

This works fine but the problem is 1D bid then is artificial and may even be void in Diamonds, hence we must have 10 HCP minimum (vs.8 ).....I think the new 'yellow' card continues with the 10 HCP minimum on an artificial 1D opening...
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#15 User is offline   Kungsgeten 

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Posted 2017-August-28, 05:44

View PostShugart23, on 2017-August-28, 04:17, said:

We actually currently have the intermediate long club hand buried in our 1D opening and then on the rebid of 2C, Responder knows it is a long suited Club hnad....with a 5C and 4D hand we either pass, bid 2D, or 1NT depending on the card holding

This works fine but the problem is 1D bid then is artificial and may even be void in Diamonds, hence we must have 10 HCP minimum (vs.8 ).....I think the new 'yellow' card continues with the 10 HCP minimum on an artificial 1D opening...


So you're playing the MICS system? I always thought that the 1D opening was a bit strange, but Rexford claims it works well. If wanting a natural diamond opening, I'd probably do something like this:

1. Treat 4-4-1-4 as balanced. Is that allowed in ACBL? In other words, the 1NT opening can be 4-4-1-4. An alternative could be to open these 1H?
2. Make the 2C opening natural.
3. Make 1D promise diamonds. Open three-suiters with diamonds here.

I haven't played canapé myself, so it may be the case that having three-suiters in their own bid improves the rest of the system considerably.

Now what to do with both minors? Well, either you could do what most strong club systems do, and open 1D with both minors and then rebid 2C and be ambigious about which suit is the longer one. If you do not like that, an alternative could be not to play canapé in the minor suits. Open 1D with 5D and 4C, and open 2C with 5C and 4D.

Now you either end up with this:

1C = 16+
1D = 4+D canapé style, could be both minors either way.
1M = 4+M, canapé style
1NT = 12-15, could be 4-4-1-4
2C = 6+C, usually no other suit?
2D = ?? I guess multi isn't allowed?
2M = Roman.
2NT = Minors preemptive

Or this:

1C = 16+
1D = 4+D, longer major possible. 5D and 4C possible.
1M = 4+M, canapé style.
1NT = 12-15, could be 4-4-1-4.
2C = 6+C, or 5C and 4D. No major.
2D = ??
2M = Roman.
2NT = Minors preemptive.

Yet another option could be to play nebulous diamond, showing a 4(+) minor and a longer side suit.

1D = A four+ minor and a longer side suit.
2m = 6+ minor.
2M = Not needed as Roman.

This could be extended so that it promises a five card major:

1D = Promises a five card major. Probably 5M and 4+m, but I guess you could include 5332 here too.
2m = 6+ minor, or 5 cards in the minor and 4 in the other minor.
2NT = 5-5 minors, opening strength.

Another option is to extend the Roman style bids even more (open 1M with three-suiters):

1D = Any unbalanced without a major.
2C = 4+ clubs and 5+ hearts.
2D = 4+ diamonds and 5+ spades.
2H = 5+ hearts and 4+ diamonds.
2S = 5+ spades and 4+ clubs.
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#16 User is offline   Shugart23 

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Posted 2017-August-28, 08:13

View PostKungsgeten, on 2017-August-28, 05:44, said:

So you're playing the MICS system? I always thought that the 1D opening was a bit strange, but Rexford claims it works well. If wanting a natural diamond opening, I'd probably do something like this:

1. Treat 4-4-1-4 as balanced. Is that allowed in ACBL? In other words, the 1NT opening can be 4-4-1-4. An alternative could be to open these 1H?
2. Make the 2C opening natural.
3. Make 1D promise diamonds. Open three-suiters with diamonds here.

I haven't played canapé myself, so it may be the case that having three-suiters in their own bid improves the rest of the system considerably.

Now what to do with both minors? Well, either you could do what most strong club systems do, and open 1D with both minors and then rebid 2C and be ambigious about which suit is the longer one. If you do not like that, an alternative could be not to play canapé in the minor suits. Open 1D with 5D and 4C, and open 2C with 5C and 4D.

Now you either end up with this:

1C = 16+
1D = 4+D canapé style, could be both minors either way.
1M = 4+M, canapé style
1NT = 12-15, could be 4-4-1-4
2C = 6+C, usually no other suit?
2D = ?? I guess multi isn't allowed?
2M = Roman.
2NT = Minors preemptive

Or this:

1C = 16+
1D = 4+D, longer major possible. 5D and 4C possible.
1M = 4+M, canapé style.
1NT = 12-15, could be 4-4-1-4.
2C = 6+C, or 5C and 4D. No major.
2D = ??
2M = Roman.
2NT = Minors preemptive.

Yet another option could be to play nebulous diamond, showing a 4(+) minor and a longer side suit.

1D = A four+ minor and a longer side suit.
2m = 6+ minor.
2M = Not needed as Roman.

This could be extended so that it promises a five card major:

1D = Promises a five card major. Probably 5M and 4+m, but I guess you could include 5332 here too.
2m = 6+ minor, or 5 cards in the minor and 4 in the other minor.
2NT = 5-5 minors, opening strength.

Another option is to extend the Roman style bids even more (open 1M with three-suiters):

1D = Any unbalanced without a major.
2C = 4+ clubs and 5+ hearts.
2D = 4+ diamonds and 5+ spades.
2H = 5+ hearts and 4+ diamonds.
2S = 5+ spades and 4+ clubs.



Yeah , we are playing MCIS as a foundation with our own modifications where we felt appropriate....Played a 'super-precision' with partner for about 4-5 years and switched to Canape on 1/1/16 (new year's resolution). It was difficult at first because the whole mindset changes, but after about 3 months we started getting comfortable with it, and now doubt we will ever go back.... I always hated having to open 1M with 5 cards and now we cause the Opponent's lots of difficulty when we Open their 5 card Major (they can't do an immediate double)or they overcall into our long undisclosed 5+ card suit , plus it seems we have a greater grasp of the hand distributions on defense......Mostly, it is really a lot of fun once one gets used to it...

I am a little leery of revamping the whole system, but I will think more on what you have presented.

You have given me an idea...The problem I have is not that I bury my intermediate long club hand in with 1D, but that I can't open that bid with less than 10 HCP.....If we modify our agreement so that I need to also have 3+ Diamonds, then my 1D Open becomes a natural bid (and is not alterable) and I can drop down to 8 HCP......what is the price I pay ?...If I have a 4 card Major and long Clubs, I open the Major......so It's hands that have long Clubs, 3 or less cards in a Major, 0,1, or 2 Diamonds....

3316, 3226,2326, or some hands that have 7+ Clubs

So maybe our 3C bid becomes a hand that shows 7+ clubs and no 4 card Major (and probably any number of Diamonds)and the 3226 and 2326 hands get tossed into the 1NT opening if the point count is there and otherwise we sit back on defense or do a Club overcall......

Then if I open 1D and rebid the Clubs, partner knows I have 3+ Diamonds and 6 Clubs precisely (and I can open 8 HCP hands)......

(Unfortunately, I cannot play a multi-2D bid or a multi-2NT bid in ACBL games that I play in, nor do I think I am allowed to open 3 suited hands with a 1NT bid, unless singleton is an Ace or King...I don't believe multi-bids will be allowed under the new Yellow sheet/card either)
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#17 User is offline   dokoko 

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Posted 2017-August-30, 10:08

View PostKungsgeten, on 2017-August-26, 16:08, said:

Some use 3D over a 3C preempt as a puppet to 3H (not quite sure what they do next, but anyway). So maybe something like that?

3C--
3D = Puppet to 3H.
3M = Natural and GF.
3NT = To play.
4C = Preemptive.
4D = Both majors, GF.
4M = To play.

3C--3D; 3H--
Pass = Weak long hearts.
3S = Non-forcing?
3NT = Offer to play, but opener may remove with bad clubs and minimum? Not sure..
4C = Optional RKC (bid 4D with min, otherwise respond keycards).
4D = Natural GF.
4M = GF diamonds + major, not forcing.


With a weak one-suited hand you may as well pass 3c. I think a better use for the 3d response is an invite with a major or the other things you put into it. Opener bids in a p/c style, where 3nt says he would cooperate with any invitation (3h says don't like h, 3s says like h not sp, 4cl says like both M but would remove 3nt) - structure proposed by Kokish-Kraft.
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#18 User is online   PrecisionL 

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Posted 2017-August-30, 19:58

Schenken used 3 as a solid suit with 61/2 - 8 tricks to distinguish it from his 2 opening of 10-15 hcp and a good 5-card or better suit. Therefore, get rid of your 3-suited 2 opening, it is not needed and interferes with weaker 2 opening hands.

Responses: Usually 3NT with stoppers in 2 suits and 2 tricks or better.
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Played a Mosca (Nightmare-Fantunes-Millennium like) system with canapé, 11-14 NT with Keri Invites and Intermediate 2 bids (10-14), & 15+ 1 opener with transfer negatives @ 1-level & transfer positives @ the 2- and 3-levels. Canape after opening 1 or 1 (into a minor suit only). Played Naturelle in 2018. 2019 playing Canapé Club: 1 promises 4+ and 10+ hcp and is forcing 1 round (after George Coffin's NBC: Natural Big Club).

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#19 User is offline   Shugart23 

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Posted 2017-August-31, 14:58

View PostPrecisionL, on 2017-August-30, 19:58, said:

Schenken used 3 as a solid suit with 61/2 - 8 tricks to distinguish it from his 2 opening of 10-15 hcp and a good 5-card or better suit. Therefore, get rid of your 3-suited 2 opening, it is not needed and interferes with weaker 2 opening hands.

Responses: Usually 3NT with stoppers in 2 suits and 2 tricks or better.


Thanks all for the input....I really don't have a problem burying my intermediate Club hand within the 1D opening, but my problem is the ACBL requirement that I need 10 HCP to open the artificial 1D hand

I think partner and I are going to go with the Schenken 3C approach being a solid 7 suiter with an outside entry and see how that works, along with making sure we have 3+ Diamonds when we open 1D with long Clubs....will try and throw the 2326 and 3226 hands into 1NT ( and maybe the 2227 hand)..... For the remaining 3316 intermediate hand, I may just have to resort to playing defense or do an overcall.

Precision L...I think I have to keep a 3-suited bid somewhere playing canapé, though it seems most here might suggest opening 2D to show it..As I seem to recall...you play a canapé system ? where/how do you show the 4441 hand or some 4540 hands?
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#20 User is online   nullve 

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Posted 2017-August-31, 16:02

So 2 over 1-1M/N is currently showing the intermediate 1-suiters w/ 6+ C? Then how about

1 = same as now but excluding "10-15, 1-suited w/ 6+ C" and including "11-15, 3-suited w/ short C" (makes 1 NAT)
...1M/N = same as now
......2 = "11-15, 3-suited w/ short C"
......other = same as now
...other = same as now
2 = "11-15, 3-suited w/ C" or "10-15, 1-suited w/ 6+ C"
...2 = relay (same as now?)
......2 = "11-15, 3-suited w/ H" (as in Roman Club, but guaranteeing C)
......2 = "11-15, 3-suited w/ short H" (as in Roman Club)
......2N/3 = 1-suiters w/ 6+ C (as in one Belladonna's 1986 version of Roman Club, but with "10-15" instead of "16-19")
...(...)
other = same as now (so 3 is PRE)

?

Should be GCC legal.
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