# BBO Discussion Forums: Point-count contracts - BBO Discussion Forums

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### #1Vampyr

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Posted 2017-July-13, 23:07

Does anyone have a chart (or, really, just a written paragraph) with a good approximation of how many tricks a declaring side will expect to make with a given number of HCP? This is intended for children who are not ready for a bidding system but let need to have a goal. Charts that take into account length and/or degree of fit also welcome.

Also, would you use a different set of approximations for experienced adults playing with learning children (e.g. in a family setting)?
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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### #2Zelandakh

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Posted 2017-July-14, 03:55

Jogs is your man for such a formula! I actually play a form of Chicago like this sometimes and a modifier of 30(H1 - H2) works reasonably well. You tend to get slightly too much on part scores and not enough on games but the effect is to bring it closer to duplicate.

If I were creating a new game without auction I would make it so that the player with the most hcp becomes Declarer, thus getting the children into the habit of counting their hcp. Dummy then turns over their cards and Declarer chooses trumps (or no trumps). The base trick target is given by (H+1)/3. This gets modified as follows:-

For a NT contract, if a 5+ card suit held between the 2 hands add an additional 1/2 a trick (rounding 0.5 up)
For a suit contract, add a trick automatically, then add 2 tricks if a side suit void is held, 1 trick if a side suit singleton is to be found (and no void) and 1/2 a trick (rounding 0.5 up) if only doubletons are seen.

For scoring, they get 2 points for every trick above 6 with clubs or diamonds as trumps or 3 points for every trick above 6 for hearts or spades as trumps or in NT providing they reach the modified trick target. If they fail to reach the target the defenders score 5 points for every trick less than the target.

Perhaps that is too complicated, in which case just simplify until you are satisfied. It does not really matter too much - just giving them a reasonable goal is enough.
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### #3Vampyr

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Posted 2017-July-14, 06:28

Zelandakh, on 2017-July-14, 03:55, said:

Jogs is your man for such a formula! I actually play a form of Chicago like this sometimes and a modifier of 30(H1 - H2) works reasonably well. You tend to get slightly too much on part scores and not enough on games but the effect is to bring it closer to duplicate.

If I were creating a new game without auction I would make it so that the player with the most hcp becomes Declarer, thus getting the children into the habit of counting their hcp. Dummy then turns over their cards and Declarer chooses trumps (or no trumps). The base trick target is given by (H+1)/3. This gets modified as follows:-

For a NT contract, if a 5+ card suit held between the 2 hands add an additional 1/2 a trick (rounding 0.5 up)
For a suit contract, add a trick automatically, then add 2 tricks if a side suit void is held, 1 trick if a side suit singleton is to be found (and no void) and 1/2 a trick (rounding 0.5 up) if only doubletons are seen.

For scoring, they rget 2 points for every trick above 6 with clubs or diamonds as trumps or 3 points for every trick above 6 for hearts or spades as trumps or in NT providing they reach the modified trick target. If they fail to reach the target the defenders score 5 points for every trick less than the target.

Perhaps that is too complicated, in which case just simplify until you are satisfied. It does not really matter too much - just giving them a reasonable goal is enough.

Thanks. Yes, minibridge already has the hand with the highest point count become declarer, and this is what I am using as a model. the trouble with minibridge is that the declarer opts for just a partscore or a game. This gives the defenders little incentive when par is 8 or nine tricks but declarer needs only seven. Kids need that competitive aspect to keep it exciting.

The dummy does not have to be faced prematurely, as the child can look at both hands without the opponents seeing if using a card holder or if the dummy comes to show her.

EDIT: there is no point in dividing the score by 10, or anyway I can't think of one. I do think that game and slam bonuses should be given, because this will teach the learners to value more highly these special contracts.

When I was a child, I learned bidding by using a Gorden bidding wheel. I had read his book, but my sister had not, and we both relied heavily on the wheel. Some other family members even used it from time to time. It helped enormously, and we never actually played a single hand without an auction.

For this reason I definitely think that wheels, flippers, flow charts, cheat sheets etc are essential for children learning to bid. Eventually they will internalise some of the concepts and memorise many of the bids. But this should not be an early goal, and anyway I digress.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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### #4nullve

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Posted 2017-July-14, 07:31

After, or instead of, minibridge, how about teaching the small children a game just like bridge, but with simplified scoring and a two-staged auction phase, e.g.

North: "clubs"
East: "diamonds"
West: "diamonds" [ends EW's discussion about which denomination to play in]
North: "hearts"
North: "notrump"
South: "notrump" [ends NS's discussion about which denomination to play in]

followed by

North: "five" [North is willing to contract for five tricks in notrump]
East: "six"
South: "eight"
West: "nine"
North: "pass"
East: "pass"
South: "double"
West: "pass"
North: "pass"
East: "pass"

?
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### #5Vampyr

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Posted 2017-July-14, 07:39

If you are doing that you might as well just teach an auction bridge system.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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Posted 2017-July-14, 09:30

Not quite exactly what you are requesting, but a bridge book that won a major bridge award recently may be a good stepping-stone for children to learn bridge. By Julian Laderman, it's called Play Bumblepuppy Bridge.

And getting more young people interested in our game is only a good thing.
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### #7bridgepali

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Posted 2017-July-14, 10:54

Vampyr, on 2017-July-13, 23:07, said:

Does anyone have a chart (or, really, just a written paragraph) with a good approximation of how many tricks a declaring side will expect to make with a given number of HCP? This is intended for children who are not ready for a bidding system but let need to have a goal. Charts that take into account length and/or degree of fit also welcome.

Also, would you use a different set of approximations for experienced adults playing with learning children (e.g. in a family setting)?

I do.
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### #8Vampyr

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Posted 2017-July-14, 22:28

Not quite exactly what you are requesting, but a bridge book that won a major bridge award recently may be a good stepping-stone for children to learn bridge. By Julian Laderman, it's called Play Bumblepuppy Bridge.

Perhaps. But I have looked for descriptions of the book online and cannot get any idea about what the game is like.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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### #9blackshoe

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Posted 2017-July-16, 22:39

http://www.bridgewor...lpage_2220.html

The description does not, unfortunately, answer your questions, but the book isn't expensive, though shipping to Europe might be.
--------------------
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### #10Vampyr

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Posted 2017-July-16, 23:04

blackshoe, on 2017-July-16, 22:39, said:

http://www.bridgewor...lpage_2220.html

The description does not, unfortunately, answer your questions, but the book isn't expensive, though shipping to Europe might be.

I would not consider buying this book without knowing something about the game it teaches. I thought I mentioned that already. What I am really interested in is answers to my original query. Though perhaps no one feels they can improve on the one posted above, which is fine; I will try it.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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