[Winstonm]

 Cyberyeti, on 2017-June-07, 12:47, said:

It's also what you define as strong, I'm not overcalling 3♣ over 2♠ with 9 or 9.5 tricks (particularly at this vul), so 5♣ seems the only option on the hand I gave.

X then bidding also shows strength and takes care of a lot of the hands with 6 clubs, and some of the ones with 7. 5♣ should have no doubt about strain, and I think will have 8 a goodly amount of the time.

An argument in favor of the jump bid is not to get shut out at the 4-level. If you double a 2S bid with a strong heart hand, the next bid you might hear is 4S on your left. Double has enough pressure on it - to add another hand type to the mix seems less useful to me.

[rmnka447]

 Winstonm, on 2017-June-06, 12:30, said:

From my experience, and please understand that I'm talking years and years ago, of occassionally playing against and more often observing (after having been crushed by) players like Hamman, Wolff, Lair, Soloway, Lawrence, etc., it is that they all had the discipline not to bid 5C without having their bid - so that their partners could confidently bid 7C with this kind of hand.

Your 6C bid exemplifies what I found out and what you would find going back to the other table against someone with that kind of discipline: 6C making 7 is a loss.

Good point. It does speak to one advantage of bidding discipline in situations like this one. I've also seen a large modicum of such discipline when competing against top players.

Unfortunately, none of us usually have those kind of players sitting across the table from us. So maybe we have to take that into consideration in deciding what to do.

The more I think about it, 5 ♠ may be a better bid in a situation where intervener's discipline is less sure.

[rmnka447]

 Winstonm, on 2017-June-07, 17:30, said:

An argument in favor of the jump bid is not to get shut out at the 4-level. If you double a 2S bid with a strong heart hand, the next bid you might hear is 4S on your left. Double has enough pressure on it - to add another hand type to the mix seems less useful to me.

Pay your money and take your choice.

If you reserve a jump bid as a very strong single suited overcall, then you're sort of stuck doubling with big 2 suited hands. Then try to figure out how to compete with those hands over a preemptive raise.

I think that's why people use a jump to show a big two suiter -- suit bid and next higher unbid suit.

[Winstonm]

 rmnka447, on 2017-June-07, 18:33, said:

Pay your money and take your choice.

If you reserve a jump bid as a very strong single suited overcall, then you're sort of stuck doubling with big 2 suited hands. Then try to figure out how to compete with those hands over a preemptive raise.

I think that's why people use a jump to show a big two suiter -- suit bid and next higher unbid suit.

Agree. It requires a decision. But more important than how you play is to have the discipline to have your bid.

[mr1303]

If partner can't bid 4C, then it increases the likelihood that partner might have taken a position and bid 5C, so 5S then pass 6C looks right. I never get these problems right at the table. 5C should be the Rock of Gibraltar, but we all know partners who take views...

[Nabooba]

6C. Bidding 5S is a waste of time as what are you going to bid over 6C?

[gszes]

I would just guess 6c in this case. The range of partner's hands is so vast that trying to gather information is a task fraught with peril. The only bid I might find interesting would be if we are playing 5s as exclusion rkc (I use it under these conditions but it is not common). 6c is a middle of the road guess that should make around 85% of the time or more with a fair number of times making 7. I bid 6 because I really expect a 9+ trick hand from partner but not one filled with a lot of hcp.

[cherdano]

 Tramticket, on 2017-June-06, 14:27, said:

Is this the hand to psych a 5D cue bid?

Certainly not - how do you expect to pitch diamond losers in case partner does not have the ♦A?

[cherdano]

 Winstonm, on 2017-June-06, 11:52, said:

5C is a strong bid - most likely 7 clubs in length, so 0337 or 1237 shape. Would in be right to bid 5C directly without the diamond A? -, KQx, KQx, KQJxxxx? That is a 3 Club bid.

It seems crazy to bid 3♣ with that - partner won't raise with a doubleton club and an ace.

Usually these kind of problems are hard, but this one seems very easy to me - it seems clearly wrong to bid 7♣, and it seems clearly wrong not to try for grand. If we bid 5♠ and partner has a spade void, he will bid 6♣ unless he has a monster. If he has a spade singleton, two keycards=+♣Q and more tricks, he'll bid 5NT to make some noise, and we can bid 7♣. It also seems clear to pass 6♣ after we try 5♠ - there are just way too many losers to take care of if our ♠A isn't useful. - Kxxx AK KQJxxxx.

[manudude03]

I stretched a bit not being able to bid 4C.

---

Partner said he passed because he was afraid of being off the top 2 diamonds. I asked another reasonably strong player who hadn't seen the hand, and he said it was close between pass and 6C because of the diamond issue. I was thinking this was at least a 6C bid, and should only be trying to work out how to investigate grand. We lost 10 imps when 6C was reached at the other table.

[Cyberyeti]

 manudude03, on 2017-June-08, 16:11, said:

I stretched a bit not being able to bid 4C.

---

Partner said he passed because he was afraid of being off the top 2 diamonds. I asked another reasonably strong player who hadn't seen the hand, and he said it was close between pass and 6C because of the diamond issue. I was thinking this was at least a 6C bid, and should only be trying to work out how to investigate grand. We lost 10 imps when 6C was reached at the other table.

Your partner deserved you to have Q♥ as well, by no means impossible you are off a split diamond AK and making even when it's not on providing you don't highlight it.

[silvr bull]

i am late to this party, but I wanted to offer my lonely vote that pass could be best. I read many comments here that said West must have a HUGE hand because of the rule to not preempt a preempter. I agree that a jump to 4C would show a strong hand, but I have a different view of the 5C bid. West can show a hand too good to jump to 4C by double or que first, but there is only one way to jam the auction to the 5 level immediately. Consider a hand like void void QJxx KQJxxxxxx. With that hand, I will not let the opps play 4M, and probably not 6M either. I cannot imagine bidding less than 5C immediately to force the opps to guess at a high level. I would bid 5C even if the auction was P P 2S because a passed hand opposite a weak two can make game, and because partner needs only the DA or K for me to have an excellent play for 5C. I agree with the comments about the value of discipline, and my jump to 4C would be strong and disciplined, but a jump to 5C must be an available option for a hand that cannot bid less.

Edit to add a note of thanks to MrAce for "gently" pointing out that my post above would have been better if I posted it before comment #5 in which manudude03 said that a West jump to 4C would have been Leaping Michaels, which I do not bid. I will try to make my future post's more timely.

[MrAce]

 silvr bull, on 2017-June-09, 00:06, said:

i am late to this party, but I wanted to offer my lonely vote that pass could be best. I read many comments here that said West must have a HUGE hand because of the rule to not preempt a preempter. I agree that a jump to 4C would show a strong hand, but I have a different view of the 5C bid. West can show a hand too good to jump to 4C by double or que first, but there is only one way to jam the auction to the 5 level immediately. Consider a hand like void void QJxx KQJxxxxxx. With that hand, I will not let the opps play 4M, and probably not 6M either. I cannot imagine bidding less than 5C immediately to force the opps to guess at a high level. I would bid 5C even if the auction was P P 2S because a passed hand opposite a weak two can make game, and because partner needs only the DA or K for me to have an excellent play for 5C. I agree with the comments about the value of discipline, and my jump to 4C would be strong and disciplined, but a jump to 5C must be an available option for a hand that cannot bid less.

 manudude03, on 2017-June-06, 09:00, said:

4C would be leaping michaels.

Are you sure you want BBO to reward skill and eliminate luck as it says in your signature? Because If your skills and attention at the table are similar to your skills and attention on topics you are about to reply, it may not be in your best interest! You have unlimited time to respond to a topic. You do not have that luxury at the table or in BBO!

[silvr bull]

 MrAce, on 2017-June-09, 01:29, said:

Are you sure you want BBO to reward skill and eliminate luck as it says in your signature? Because If your skills and attention at the table are similar to your skills and attention on topics you are about to reply, it may not be in your best interest! You have unlimited time to respond to a topic. You do not have that luxury at the table or in BBO!

Awww, isn't MrA** cute? He has a personal vendetta against me. When others post ideas he disagrees with, he can sometimes respond with something reasonable. But when MrA** sees me post, all he can do is froth at the mouth and pound insults into his keyboard. I have pity for MrA**, just like I would for an idiot savant who cannot tie his own shoelaces. Note that I have never tossed a first insult at MrA**, but I am forced to respond when he insults or attacks me. Note too that I did not criticize the 5S bid by MrA**. I simply said that for me, a jump to 4C is strong and a jump to 5C could be necessary with a hand like void void QJxx KQJxxxxxx. What would you do with that hand MrA**? To quote a legend in his own mind, "You have unlimited time to respond to a topic. You do not have that luxury at the table or in BBO!"

In fairness, I must admit that MrA** excels at making assumptions. Maybe MrA** assumed that 4C would be Leaping Michaels before his very quick bid of 5S. Some people say that assume makes an ass of u and me. However, in a sportsmanlike spirit of friendship, I am willing to offer MrA** a wager. In all my years of playing bridge, I have never bid or agreed to bid Leaping Michaels. My bet is that there are a few other people who play in BBO that also do not agree to a Leaping Michaels bid convention. If I lose this wager, I will publicly admit that MrA** is better at some parts of bridge than I am. In contrast, if he loses the wager, then I expect MrA** to admit that he is not ALWAYS right. Deal or no deal, MrA**?

Edit to add: I am happy to discuss comments about Decision Point, but I prefer to do that in the Decision Point thread. I have confidence you can find that thread, if you have comments to make, but I am less confident that you can post reasonable comments without cloaking them in attacks or insults.

[MrAce]

 silvr bull, on 2017-June-09, 02:29, said:

In fairness, I must admit that MrA** excels at making assumptions. Maybe MrA** assumed that 4C would be Leaping Michaels before his very quick bid of 5S.

Edit to add: I am happy to discuss comments about Decision Point, but I prefer to do that in the Decision Point thread. I have confidence you can find that thread, if you have comments to make, but I am less confident that you can post reasonable comments without cloaking them in attacks or insults.

Dude, read one more time, it was not me who said 4♣ was LM, that was the guy who posted this topic and you are basically replying to him despite his explanation of what 4♣ would be! I did not assume it is LM, it is clearly posted by the opening poster as a reply!! HELLO!! LOL. This is exactly what I am saying, not only you do not pay attention and see it, you can still not see even after I quoted the guy for you!!

Pay attention. People telling you to pay attention is NOT an insult. People telling you the things that you write and say which contradicts with each other, is not an insult!

[silvr bull]

Thanks for your clarification above without adding insults. I added a comment to my post #32 to say thanks for your helpful suggestion that I should make my comments earlier. BTW, if you are the West OP with a hand like void void QJxx KQJxxxxxx and South opens 2S, what would you bid?

[MrAce]

 silvr bull, on 2017-June-09, 04:04, said:

BTW, if you are the West OP with a hand like void void QJxx KQJxxxxxx and South opens 2S, what would you bid?

It is tuff hand.
IF 4 ♣ is not leaping michaels, then I agree that 4♣ shows strong hands so we can spare jump to 5 ♣ for this type of hands. But if 4♣ is LM (which I play) then I will have to start 3 ♣ and hope it does not die there, which is extremely unlikely anyway.

Perhaps we should discuss with pd what would 4♠ be over their weak 2♠?

[Winstonm]

double post

[Winstonm]

 cherdano, on 2017-June-08, 14:45, said:

It seems crazy to bid 3♣ with that - partner won't raise with a doubleton club and an ace.

Usually these kind of problems are hard, but this one seems very easy to me - it seems clearly wrong to bid 7♣, and it seems clearly wrong not to try for grand. If we bid 5♠ and partner has a spade void, he will bid 6♣ unless he has a monster. If he has a spade singleton, two keycards=+♣Q and more tricks, he'll bid 5NT to make some noise, and we can bid 7♣. It also seems clear to pass 6♣ after we try 5♠ - there are just way too many losers to take care of if our ♠A isn't useful. - Kxxx AK KQJxxxx.

Losing a club plus 2 hearts or 2 diamonds doesn't let 5C make.

I agree that a decision must be made as to how good of hand (or systemic bid for 4C) needs to be held to bid either 3c, 4c, 5c. It might be best to give up on perfect bids in order to make more practical contracts available, which is what I think you are saying?

[Kaitlyn S]

6C.

I don't see partner bidding 7C when it's right after I bid 5S when I have 3 aces.