[MNBridge]

Just looking for some general input and discussion.

Bidding

1 ♣ - dbl - P - ( A )

What do you need in ( A ) to bid 2 ♠ 's?

1 ♣ - Dbl - P - 1 ♠
2 ♣ - ( B )

what do you need in ( B ) to bid 2 ♠ 's

1 ♣ - Dbl - P - 1 ♠
2 ♣ - P - P - ( C )

what do you need in ( C ) to bid 2 ♠ 's

Please make general comments as well if needed

For me I would expect:
( A ) 9 points -- giving points for dist (assume fit).
( B ) 15 GOOD points but I'd like to have 16
( C ) 4 + points (Note this hand is already limited in ( A ) ) *If I have another 4 card suit (hearts or diamonds) I'll bid 2 of that suit here instead.

I think the discussion by necessity needs to include what will you double with? But I'll leave that discussion for now.

And another question for ( C ) what would a dbl now mean?

[Chamaco]

Quote

1 ♣ - dbl - P - (A)

What do you need in (A) to bid 2 ♠ 's?

Quote

For me I would expect:
(A) 9 points -- giving points for dist (assume fit).

More or less ok.

Quote

1 ♣  - Dbl - P - 1 ♠
2 ♣  - (

what do you need in ( to bid 2 ♠ 's

We had a recent thread on this.
Raising pard in competition is not supposed to show a reverse.

E.g. if opener did NOT bid 2C, then yes, a raise would guarantee a good15+ hand, but after he bids, the requirements drop, it is important to get busy in the bidding.

Yet there are 2 ways to play it:

a. one that is only guarantees a minimum opener with 4 card support, say
KJTx-Kxx-AJTx-xx

b. another way to play it is that it does show some extras, e.g. a GOOD opening hand (say a 14+ if balanced, or else a 6.5 losers hand if unbalanced):
AJTx-Kxx-AQTx-xx is about right for this

I used to play a, but the discussions on this forum have convinced me that b is probably better for constructive bidding.
Anyway there seems to be no real standard, this needs to be discussed with a partner.

Quote

1 ♣  - Dbl - P - 1 ♠
2 ♣  - P  -  P - ©

what do you need in © to bid 2 ♠ 's

This is a direct consequence of the above.
If the doubler raise must show a solid pener, (so a stronger hand), then here the requirements should be more relaxed, to protect partner.
I would say that here 2S is appropriate with any hand with 5+ spades that is not a yarborough.
Holding only 4 spades and, say, 5+ hcp, I'd prefer making a balancing double, pard won't play us for much (we would have jumped with a good 8/9), and act accordingly.

[Chamaco]

Check also this thread:
http://forums.bridge...wtopic=7165&hl=

[HeartA]

MNBridge, on Apr 18 2005, 09:35 AM, said:

Just looking for some general input and discussion.

Bidding

1 ♣ - dbl - P - ( A )

What do you need in ( A ) to bid 2 ♠ 's?

1 ♣ - Dbl - P - 1 ♠
2 ♣ - ( B )

what do you need in ( B ) to bid 2 ♠ 's

1 ♣ - Dbl - P - 1 ♠
2 ♣ - P - P - ( C )

what do you need in ( C ) to bid 2 ♠ 's

Please make general comments as well if needed

For me I would expect:
( A ) 9 points -- giving points for dist (assume fit).
( B ) 15 GOOD points but I'd like to have 16
( C ) 4 + points (Note this hand is already limited in ( A ) ) *If I have another 4 card suit (hearts or diamonds) I'll bid 2 of that suit here instead.

I think the discussion by necessity needs to include what will you double with? But I'll leave that discussion for now.

And another question for ( C ) what would a dbl now mean?

A. good 9 hcp with 4-card ♠, or 8 with 5-card.

B. good 15+ hcp with 4-card support.

C. good 5-7(8) hcp, most likely 5-card.

[inquiry]

MNBridge, on Apr 18 2005, 10:35 AM, said:

Just looking for some general input and discussion.

Bidding

1 ♣ - dbl - P - ( A )

What do you need in ( A ) to bid 2 ♠ 's?

1 ♣  - Dbl - P - 1 ♠
2 ♣  - ( B )

what do you need in ( B ) to bid 2 ♠ 's

1 ♣  - Dbl - P - 1 ♠
2 ♣  - P  -  P - ( C )

what do you need in ( C ) to bid 2 ♠ 's

Please make general comments as well if needed

For me I would expect:
( A ) 9 points -- giving points for dist (assume fit).
( B ) 15 GOOD points but I'd like to have 16
( C ) 4 + points (Note this hand is already limited in ( A ) ) *If I have another 4 card suit (hearts or diamonds) I'll bid 2 of that suit here instead.

I think the discussion by necessity needs to include what will you double with?  But I'll leave that discussion for now.

And another question for ( C ) what would a dbl now mean?

Welcome to the BBO Forum, MnBridge. As you probably saw, some simple combination of letters and brackets have funny effects. I edited your post to make your ( C ) and B ) look like B"s and "c's rathter than and ©.

Now to your questions,

In ( A ) to bid 2♠ I need 6 to 10 hcp and a five card spade suit. The five card spade suit is not a "typical" requirement, but it is really the best way to play this I think. With only six hcp, these should be in my suit too.

In ( B ) I need not too much, but since partner might have only 3♠, I would like a fifth spade here myself, or at least compensating values. Certainly, without the fifth spade, I need more hcp than if I held a fifth spade. I consider this 2♠ bid just "competiting" and do not promise a moster hand (it is different if RHO had passed 1♠, of course).

( C ) in "A" I needed a five card suit. So "C" can be still a four card suit but the top of my range for 1♠ (original range 0-10 with four card suit, 0 - bad 6 with five card suit). So here 2♠ would show upper range, or 8 to 10 with a four card suit (if I had five I would have jumped earlier).

This is not "Standard", as most just define the 2♠ response based upon hcp and 4+ spades.

Ben

[Fluffy]

not familioar with sayc, here is how I always play it

(A) (8)9-11, 4♠ only, with 5 3♠
( just 4♠, and less than 16
© jsut a 5th ♠.

[HeartA]

HeartA, on Apr 18 2005, 11:50 AM, said:

A. good 9 hcp with 4-card ♠, or 8 with 5-card.

B. good 15+ hcp with 4-card support.

C. good 5-7(8) hcp, most likely 5-card.

I forgot to give upper bound for the bidding.

A. 9-11 (or bad 12) with 4-card, or 8 to bad 11 with 5-card
B. good 15 to 17 with 4-card support.
C. the same.

[joker_gib]

Fluffy, on Apr 18 2005, 06:33 PM, said:

not familioar with sayc, here is how I always play it

(A) (8)9-11, 4♠ only, with 5 3♠
( just 4♠, and less than 16
© jsut a 5th ♠.

Totally agree ! Same for me

[Chamaco]

inquiry, on Apr 18 2005, 05:11 PM, said:

( C ) in "A" I needed a five card suit. So "C" can be still a four card suit but the top of my range for 1♠ (original range 0-10 with four card suit, 0 - bad 6 with five card suit). So here 2♠ would show upper range, or 8 to 10 with a four card suit (if I had five I would have jumped earlier).

Ben, in "C", how would you play a balancing double by advancer ?
I suggested top of range, 4 cards, but it seems you are suggesting to bid 2S with such hand, so what would be the meaning of double in your scheme ?

[inquiry]

Chamaco, on Apr 19 2005, 05:24 AM, said:

inquiry, on Apr 18 2005, 05:11 PM, said:

( C ) in "A" I needed a five card suit. So "C" can be still a four card suit but the top of my range for 1♠ (original range 0-10 with four card suit, 0 - bad 6 with five card suit). So here 2♠ would show upper range, or 8 to 10 with a four card suit (if I had five I would have jumped earlier).

Ben, in "C", how would you play a balancing double by advancer ?
I suggested top of range, 4 cards, but it seems you are suggesting to bid 2S with such hand, so what would be the meaning of double in your scheme ?

In ( C ) I didn't skip by a four card heart suit to rebid a four card spade suit so I don't have four hearts. This also applies to if I reopen with a a double, if I had four hearts I would bid 2H rather than double. So a double does not ask partner to pick between hearts and spades (I wiould simple bid 2♥. Also, the hcp choice is limited to 10chp, so it is not penalty or cards. So what is always comes up to is takeout with more interest in the other suit (in this case diamonds, but if they had opened 1D and rebid 2D, it would be clubs). So if I bid 2D in balance seat here, it is a four card suit, but if I double here, I show longer diamonds than spades.

This also means, when I balance to 2S here, I am likely 4-(32)-4 in their suit, or (gasp), 4555 or have four good spades and 4 weak diamonds.

Ben