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Question to raptor users

#1 User is offline   Syl20 

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Posted 2005-April-20, 00:57

Hi,
Although i find the Raptor convention usefull for the overcaller. I don't see how to cope with the inference. Every pros claim that with the normal 1nt overcaller (balanced (15)16-18), we just have to double.

I am not sure this is as simple since after:
(1)- X - (P) - 2/
what is the overcaller supposed to bid when his partner could be fairly poor but could also have 7hcp ?
I have the feeling that the overcaller is stuck to bid 2NT final contract instead of playing a simple 1NT after usual overcall.

Could you please lighten me ?

Sylvain
Sylvain
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#2 User is offline   mr1303 

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Posted 2005-April-20, 02:04

The idea is that you still have a shape not completely unsuitable for a take-out double. For example, with 2 small spades and 4 hearts, if RHO opens 1H it would be poor to make a take-out double. However, a hand like this below:

E.g.

AKx
KJx
QJxx
Kxx

after 1H, you'd make a take-out double. However, after 2C you'd tend to pass though, since if partner can't make an encouraging noise after the double, it looks as though game is very unlikely, and 2NT would show a better hand. To bid 2NT here will get you to a lot of bad scores.

With a slightly stronger hand, e.g.

AKx
AJx
KJxx
Kxx

you'd be entitled to bid 2NT, since give partner Axxxx of clubs and out, 3NT has good play.
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#3 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2005-April-21, 13:50

The explanation given to me by Eric Sutherland (inventor of the "Raptor NT overcall" name, and one of the inventors of the idea - of course the Poles and the Swedes came across the idea at the same time) was this: 1x-1NT-X is - uncomfortable - on a random balanced 15. What are you likely to get - 3-4 tricks, 5 if you manage to get to dummy? So they kept raising their NT overcall range to be safer until they found that it "never came up".

So, what do you do with the min NT balanced hands? Double or pass, usually. Double and NT is still the "big NT" - good 17+ or trick-taking sequences; so when you double, you have to be prepared to treat it as a "standard" T/O X.

Remember, partner gets a chance to balance, and you (usually) get one as well, when you're more likely to know you aren't walking into a buzzsaw. Yes, it does put more pressure on 4th hand to reopen than in standard, and sometimes you lose to 1M-AP, and sometimes you lose when you "feel you have to balance" and opener gets to show his 20-count. OTOH, sometimes you win when you're defending and declarer keeps finessing into you, because "you can't have that card, as well".

Michael.
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#4 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2005-April-22, 07:07

Don't forget often you get stolen from if you are passing with balanced 16s. You will miss alot of games this way. It may be dangerous to overcall 1N with 15-18 but it's more dangerous to pass.
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#5 User is offline   Gerben42 

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Posted 2005-April-22, 07:27

You won't be passing that many 16 counts, you can look for alternatives like double or bidding a suit on the 1-level or sometimes even the 2-level.
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#6 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2005-April-22, 07:46

Jlall, on Apr 22 2005, 04:07 PM, said:

Don't forget often you get stolen from if you are passing with balanced 16s. You will miss alot of games this way. It may be dangerous to overcall 1N with 15-18 but it's more dangerous to pass.

Raptor is a wonderful convention, however, if you chose to play it you should introduce a series of changes to your overcall methods

Here's abrief description regarding what I prefer over a 1 opening

3 = Weak Jump overcall
3 = Stopper ask of 3N
3 = Clubs and Hearts, intermediate strength
2NT = Roman (Strong 5-5, Clubs and a major)
2 = Spades and Clubs intermediate strength
2 = Minimum strength "pure" takeout double
2 = Hearts and Spades, Minimum or maximum
2 = Standard club overcall
1NT = Raptor
1 = 4+ Spades, could be balanced with 12-15
1 = 4+ Hearts, could be balanced with 12-15
X = Power double showing either

16+ balanced
Strong single suited
Strong takeout double
Alderaan delenda est
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#7 User is offline   Chamaco 

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Posted 2005-April-22, 09:56

hrothgar, on Apr 22 2005, 01:46 PM, said:

Raptor is a wonderful convention, however, if you chose to play it you should introduce a series of changes to your overcall methods

Here's abrief description regarding what I prefer over a 1 opening

......................

Richard,
which is the added adantage of the structure you advocate vs an overcall structure based on, say:


DOUBLE = natural t/o OR 16+ balanced
1M/2m overcall natural
single cue = higher ranked 2 suiter, 6 losers or 4- losers (5 losers bids suit naturally)
2NT = lower ranked 2suiter (U2NT), 6 losers or 4- losers (5 losers bids suit naturally)
1NT = Raptor (minimum opener strength) OR top-bottom 2 suiter 4-

Weak jump overcalls
Jumpcue = stop ask.
3NT = broken minor preempt
4m = namyats overcall (requirements for namyats overcall are relaxed)
4M = signoff

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#8 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2005-April-22, 10:12

Chamaco, on Apr 22 2005, 06:56 PM, said:

hrothgar, on Apr 22 2005, 01:46 PM, said:

Raptor is a wonderful convention, however, if you chose to play it you should introduce a series of changes to your overcall methods

Here's abrief description regarding what I prefer over a 1 opening

......................

Richard,
which is the added adantage of the structure you advocate vs an overcall structure based on, say:


DOUBLE = natural t/o OR 16+ balanced
1M/2m overcall natural
single cue = higher ranked 2 suiter, 6 losers or 4- losers (5 losers bids suit naturally)
2NT = lower ranked 2suiter (U2NT), 6 losers or 4- losers (5 losers bids suit naturally)
1NT = Raptor (minimum opener strength) OR top-bottom 2 suiter 4-

Weak jump overcalls
Jumpcue = stop ask.
3NT = broken minor preempt
4m = namyats overcall (requirements for namyats overcall are relaxed)
4M = signoff

I prefer bidding structures that maximize the pressure placed on the opponents.
The best way to do so is to employ bids that can be passed by partner with high frequency.

The most significant tradeoff between the sets of methods revolves arround jump overcalls. Your structure uses "traditional" weak jump overcalls. The structure that I am using is based on "Roman Jump Overcalls". Most jumps are used to show intermediate strength hands with two known 5 card suits. Cue bid + 1 is used to show a weak pure takeout double.

In my experience, my partners never seem to make simple weak jump overcalls. They either pass or they immeidately jump to the three level. I figured that it would be better to use the 2 level for something...
Alderaan delenda est
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