[rhm]

Cyberyeti, on 2017-April-09, 07:39, said:

I bid 6N.

Partner had:

---

They didn't lead a heart and the A was right anyway, but 6♣ is much the better slam if you can't find 6♠ or 6N by partner.

Do you agree with partners 5♣ bid?
I think it is dubious at best.

Rainer Herrmann

[Cyberyeti]

rhm, on 2017-April-09, 10:00, said:

Do you agree with partners 5♣ bid?
I think it is dubious at best.

Rainer Herrmann

What is he supposed to do without specific agreements ? I took it as most likely a strong notrump with 3 or more clubs which is what he had.

[Curls77]

Cyberyeti, on 2017-April-08, 12:09, said:

---

What approach do you take here ?

If you bid 4♣, partner bids 5♣, now 6♣ ? 6N ? 5N ? 5♠ ? do you fear the potential diamond ruff or insufficient heart stop more ?

**Edit - as people seem to be missing this, the 1♣ is precision, any 16+ that isn't 20-22 balanced

There is 1 year long ongoing course on Super Precision, held by OliverC in IAC.
In OCP rarely, if ever, you guess or gamble:
pass= 0-7 points (any distribution)
X= 8+ positive but no 5+ suit to show, opener can TAB in own suit
or
4C= 8+ positive with 5+ clubs. Opener then has many options depending on their holding.

OCP website: http://ocp.pigpen.org.uk

[rhm]

Cyberyeti, on 2017-April-09, 10:17, said:

What is he supposed to do without specific agreements ? I took it as most likely a strong notrump with 3 or more clubs which is what he had.

I do not see a good reason why 4NT should be anything else but a desire to play there.
What else is opener supposed to bid with good diamonds and a strong notrump hand?
Assume your partner has a minimum hand for his 4♣ bid, do you think 11 tricks in clubs has better chances from his side on a diamond lead than 4NT from yours?

Rainer Herrmann

[Cyberyeti]

rhm, on 2017-April-09, 13:21, said:

I do not see a good reason why 4NT should be anything else but a desire to play there.
What else is opener supposed to bid with good diamonds and a strong notrump hand?
Assume your partner has a minimum hand for his 4♣ bid, do you think 11 tricks in clubs has better chances from his side on a diamond lead than 4NT from yours?

Rainer Herrmann

That may be the best agreement, but I'm quite sure it would be bid and interpreted as Blackwood (not playing any other ace ask), partner probably doesn't bid 4♣ with 5 clubs and a minimum, he either has lots of clubs or extras. I can see 4♦ as a reasonable bid.

[nullve]

X

[1eyedjack]

Curls77, on 2017-April-09, 13:16, said:

There is 1 year long ongoing course on Super Precision, held by OliverC in IAC.
In OCP rarely, if ever, you guess or gamble:
pass= 0-7 points (any distribution)
X= 8+ positive but no 5+ suit to show, opener can TAB in own suit
or
4C= 8+ positive with 5+ clubs. Opener then has many options depending on their holding.

OCP website: http://ocp.pigpen.org.uk

I was about to ask the usual "what has this to do with the price of fish" question, but then I thought to go the extra mile and actually click on the link provided to see whether it actually supported the recommended bid of 4C suggested by this poster, only to find (not really surprisingly) that it does not.

From this sublink referenced from the link provided by the poster:

http://ocp.pigpen.or...tiveBidding.php

"If the interference is of a pre-emptive nature then the action to be taken depends on whether or not we have established through the bidding that we hold the balance of the points, or not. If Responder has not yet bid (eg: 1♥-(4♠)-???) or has made a bid that is, or may be, a weak rescue type of bid (eg: 2♣-2♠-(4♥)-???) then all bidding is natural and non-forcing."

So, applying that principle to the sequence in hand, apparently we have to ask ourselves have we through the bidding established that we hold the balance of the points? I suggest not. In that case we next ask our selves has responder yet to bid? and then answer to that is "yes". In which case according to the algorithm "all bidding is natural and non-forcing". This would appear to include 4C. Do we really want to make a non-forcing 4C bid here? Nowhere in the website, incidentally, does it suggest that 4C = 8+ positive with 5+ Clubs (although that would be a more sensible definition, if perhaps not optimal).

[cherdano]

rhm, on 2017-April-09, 13:21, said:

I do not see a good reason why 4NT should be anything else but a desire to play there.
What else is opener supposed to bid with good diamonds and a strong notrump hand?
Assume your partner has a minimum hand for his 4♣ bid, do you think 11 tricks in clubs has better chances from his side on a diamond lead than 4NT from yours?

Rainer Herrmann

Well. For once a post by Rainer contains a verifiable mistake.
(5C would be played from openers side.)

[SteveMoe]

4♣ is an easy bid, showing 9+ HCP and 5+ ♣ cards.
However it makes finding a 4-4 major suit fit a bit of a trial.
An off-shape double showing 8+ and no biddable 5-card suit (bear with me) allows opener to mention a 4-card major in response.
Imagine:
1♣ - (3♦) - X - (P)
3♥ - (P) - 3♠ - (P)
4♠ - (P) - 5♣ - (P)
5♦ - (P) - 5♠ - (P)
5N - (P) - 6♣ - (P)
6N

At lower levels of interference, any biddable 5-card suit is worth mentioning. However holding 4M & 5m and slam values and having to bid m at the 4-level, it can often be better to require the minor freebid be a 6-bagger. The difference between double and cue bid at this level is the cue bid promises 3 places to play, the double only two.

[msjennifer]

Cyberyeti, on 2017-April-08, 12:09, said:

---

What approach do you take here ?

If you bid 4♣, partner bids 5♣, now 6♣ ? 6N ? 5N ? 5♠ ? do you fear the potential diamond ruff or insufficient heart stop more ?

**Edit - as people seem to be missing this, the 1♣ is precision, any 16+ that isn't 20-22 balanced

If 1C is a Precision bid then my bid is 4 NT (1/4,0/3,2) .Further developed as per the reply.

[OliverC]

Playing Super-Precision I'd have to approach this hand from the other side, as it were, since Opener would inevitably end up in charge (initially at any rate). In practice we're unlikely to get into an Asking sequence here although Partner would have to have a pretty decent hand with reasonable controls to show a positive at the 4-level (rather than making a "positive" double):

Holding
♠KJ64
♥K852
♦AQ
♣A102

If Partner responds 4♣ after 1♣-(3♦), I'll not be anticipating as much as a 16-count opposite, so I will probably make the pragmatic bid of 4NT (natural) to show a minimum balanced Opener with good Diamond control. With their hand there's no way Partner will pass and they'd probably bid 5♦ as a slam-interested DAB. Now 5♥-5♠-6♠ will likely finish it.

[OliverC]

1eyedjack, on 2017-April-09, 14:11, said:

So, applying that principle to the sequence in hand, apparently we have to ask ourselves have we through the bidding established that we hold the balance of the points? I suggest not. In that case we next ask our selves has responder yet to bid? and then answer to that is "yes". In which case according to the algorithm "all bidding is natural and non-forcing". This would appear to include 4C. Do we really want to make a non-forcing 4C bid here? Nowhere in the website, incidentally, does it suggest that 4C = 8+ positive with 5+ Clubs (although that would be a more sensible definition, if perhaps not optimal).

LOL, That's a small part of one page of a fairly extensive site. If you look elsewhere you will find that using OCP you would probably need a bit more than a mere 8 hcp with 5-card Clubs to come in with a positive response at the 4-level. One thing the site will tell you is that 4♣ would be 100% GF (as is any positive response) and definitely not non-forcing. As I said in another post, Responder wouldn't necessarily have to have a 16-count, which is why personally, I would bid a natural 4NT over 4♣ (If nothing else just suggesting that all I have is a 16-18 balanced hand with good control of the Diamond suit). In OCP 4NT is never RKCB, so that's an option for us. Clearly with the hand Responder has they'll not leave that in, but I would probably expect them to do so with an average 11-13 hcp with 5+ Clubs).

If you can't bid 4NT naturally, then 4NT RKCB or 5♣ are pretty much your only alternatives over 4♣, I guess. Once again, Responder is very unlikely to leave 5♣ there with the hand they actually held, but you're unlikely to end up in anything else other than 6♣. 4NT RKCB will get you 5♠ and now 6♣ or 6NT are both right-sided, but either way you've no room to find a Spade fit.