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How to proceed here?

#1 User is offline   el mister 

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Posted 2017-January-25, 09:57

Picked this one up last night at the club and was uncertain on the best way of proceeding. Vanilla 2/1 system.



This is possibly very routine, but I'd appreciate advice as I wasn't sure on the definition of 3 here. It seems miles too weak for my hand, but I want to show the double fit, and need some space to hear about diamond controls, and I'm not sure how you go about that here.
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#2 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2017-January-25, 10:06

If you play weak nt then partner has shape (probably a stiff club) or 15-16 points so it is worth a slam try. If you play strong NT, partner usually has a balanced minimum so you might just decide to sign off.

If you want to make a slam try I agree with 3. A 3 splinter bid is possible but values in diamonds are worth more than in clubs and a splinter doesn't get that across.
... I am not at all keen on arriving at the 4 level with no idea of where our fit(s) might be. --- Zelandakh
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#3 User is online   nekthen 

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Posted 2017-January-26, 04:12

I would choose 4
I want to hear about controls, I would expect my partner to bid 4 with A or K and 4 otherwise. After 4 I can roll out rkcb with confidence, sure that 5 level will be safe.

After 3 partner may bid 4 and I can't find out about control. After 3 I think it gets murky. What do we do if partner bids 3? Is he looking for 3N or does he have slam interest?

It would be good to know whether you are playing weak or strong NT and would p bid 2 with only 3 card support?
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#4 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-January-26, 04:19

View Postnekthen, on 2017-January-26, 04:12, said:

I would choose 4
I want to hear about controls, I would expect my partner to bid 4 with A or K and 4 otherwise. After 4 I can roll out rkcb with confidence, sure that 5 level will be safe.

Would you not feel a little sick playing in your 8 card fit after LHO led their singleton to RHO's Ax and they returned the suit?
(-: Zel :-)

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#5 User is offline   fourdad 

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Posted 2017-January-26, 04:47

This is why I use Romex Gerber....I only care about controls. What is the point of telling partner about the double fit? Whatever system you are playing, partners 2nd bid completes the description of his hand, which males you the captain. Do you plan on telling him you have 5 hearts as well?
If you have the controls slam is the percentage play. If you do not 4H should be a lay down.
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#6 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2017-January-26, 05:01

View Posthelene_t, on 2017-January-25, 10:06, said:

If you play weak nt then partner has shape (probably a stiff club) or 15-16 points so it is worth a slam try. If you play strong NT, partner usually has a balanced minimum so you might just decide to sign off.

If you want to make a slam try I agree with 3. A 3 splinter bid is possible but values in diamonds are worth more than in clubs and a splinter doesn't get that across.

A minimum like xxx Axxx AKxx xx would give you excellent play for slam.
While it is true that red suit values are at a premium, the most important issue is whether there are wasted values in spades or not.
An advanced player will also take into account his own length in spades. 3 or 4 cards in spades are much better than 2 or less.
3 ducks this issue.
Over 3 you sign off with 4 if partner control bids 4
If he bids 4 you continue with Blackwood.

Rainer Herrmann
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#7 User is online   nekthen 

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Posted 2017-January-26, 05:04

View PostZelandakh, on 2017-January-26, 04:19, said:

Would you not feel a little sick playing in your 8 card fit after LHO led their singleton to RHO's Ax and they returned the suit?


That's life

It could happen to me in 6 as well, and yes, I could go down in 5 occasionally, but I would expect to outscore the timid 2 to 1

My partner would have 4 :D
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#8 User is offline   aawk 

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Posted 2017-January-26, 05:16

3 to show a cue (or splinter if agreed on) in .

After 4 from partner you bid 4 and partner will pass without A and or K in .

After 4 from partner you can ask aces (or key cards if agreed on).
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#9 User is online   nekthen 

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Posted 2017-January-26, 05:25

View Postfourdad, on 2017-January-26, 04:47, said:

This is why I use Romex Gerber....I only care about controls. What is the point of telling partner about the double fit? Whatever system you are playing, partners 2nd bid completes the description of his hand, which males you the captain. Do you plan on telling him you have 5 hearts as well?
If you have the controls slam is the percentage play. If you do not 4H should be a lay down.


So 4 would be Romex Gerber? Partner shows you both major suit aces with 4N. You now do not know about the K partner could be
AKxx
AJxx
xxx
xx

There is a reason Gerber should only be used for NT hands
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#10 User is online   nekthen 

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Posted 2017-January-26, 05:46

Where I do agree with fourdad is that we should captain the hand. While the splinter will work as demonstrated by aawk. Why tell opps? We are driving the hand to slam if partner tells us he has control, and the most direct approach is 4. Partner now must just do as they are asked and my hand remains a mystery to opps.

Yes they may well still lead a singleton , but they are less likely to lead A looking for a singleton with p especially if they have say KQ alongside their A
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#11 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-January-26, 06:14

View Postnekthen, on 2017-January-26, 05:04, said:

That's life

It could happen to me in 6 as well, and yes, I could go down in 5 occasionally, but I would expect to outscore the timid 2 to 1

My partner would have 4 :D

Really? I thought you played English Acol. Here though the system has been specified as Vanilla 2/1 so we can assume some 3 card raises are included. In any case it is surely much less likely that we have a 10 card heart fit than in diamonds. The question here is not of being timid or not but rather whether we lock ourselves into hearts or also allow for the possibility of playing diamonds. Particularly at IMPs (the OP did not specify) I would suggest finding the safer slam has a certain value and it is difficult to achieve that if we do not begin with 3. At Pairs the chances of both slams making makes locking ourselves into hearts less problematic. A 2 or 2NT relay might be helpful here and the majority of experienced pairs play such a convention. Without any system, 3 looks like the obvious approach with 3 being a reasonable alternative. 4 less so, particularly since our apparent lack of system agreements might drive partner towards thinking this is meant as Gerber!
(-: Zel :-)

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#12 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2017-January-26, 06:28

Nothing is known about partners honor holding or length in diamond suit.I know I will be the only one to bid 3Club now..There are only 5 losers and the smell of a slam is certainly there but now there is no way to agree the diamond suit as the tump suit and then ask the RKCB.
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#13 User is online   nekthen 

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Posted 2017-January-26, 06:36

On this sequence I think a 3 card raise, highly unlikely, what shape could p have? I assume vanilla 2/1 means 5 card major and strong NT. Unless p has 4 hearts he must rebid 1N with a weak NT holding 3 hearts. Could he have 1-3-5-4? I would have thought he bids 2

In fact I can imagine more cases where he opened a 3 card suit and raised with 4
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#14 User is offline   GrahamJson 

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Posted 2017-January-26, 06:47

View Postrhm, on 2017-January-26, 05:01, said:

A minimum like xxx Axxx AKxx xx would give you excellent play for slam.
While it is true that red suit values are at a premium, the most important issue is whether there are wasted values in spades or not.
An advanced player will also take into account his own length in spades. 3 or 4 cards in spades are much better than 2 or less.
3 ducks this issue.
Over 3 you sign off with 4 if partner control bids 4
If he bids 4 you continue with Blackwood.

Rainer Herrmann

On the other hand xx Axxx AKxx xxx has no play for six. I'm not so sure that slam is as likely as most others think. Therefore I prefer 3D, seeing if partner can make a positive noise. If he can't then I'm happy to play in 4H.
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#15 User is online   nekthen 

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Posted 2017-January-26, 06:52

As far as English Acol is concerned, although the EBU teach opening 1 with 44 in the red suits, most advanced and expert players open 1.
After 1 1 there is no distribution that requires a 3 card raise. A balanced hand rebids 1N and partner will use some form of checkback to establish whether p has 4 or 3 if he is interested
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#16 User is online   nekthen 

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Posted 2017-January-26, 06:59

Also the silence of opps is deafening!
Do we really think that they have a ten card spade fit and are keeping quiet?
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#17 User is offline   el mister 

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Posted 2017-January-26, 07:41

Thks for the replies, v helpful. It was MPs strong NT [pard is also a beginner, so advanced treatments were not available at the table].
What actually happened was that I played in 6 through a rudimentary bidding sequence that I won't detain you with, making on a spade lead. Partner showed up with AKT T43 AK54 986

The heart slam could be defeated had W led their singleton diamond, as E has the A and can give them a ruff, whereas the diamond slam is cold.

So I was wondering if a well-oiled 2/1 partnership should find 6 by showing the double fit, or if we're always going to get locked into hearts through cue-bidding.
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#18 User is online   nekthen 

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Posted 2017-January-26, 08:12

If p bids 1N instead of 2 you will rebid 3, hopefully forcing and p will take a rosy view of 4 controls and 4

As an acolite I am bidding 1N 2 2 3 3 4 4N etc and at MPs it is a toss up between the red suits and the fact you are at least 44 in and surely 53 in probably swings you to pick
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#19 User is online   nekthen 

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Posted 2017-January-26, 08:22

As a side note, I think it is amusing that the addition of a practically worthless J would completely change the bidding around as you will now open 1N and I will open 1 B-)
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#20 User is offline   Joe_Old 

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Posted 2017-January-26, 09:27

Since this is 2/1, don't ever, ever, ever rebid 3 as that is an invitational, non-forcing bid.

My bid is 3, a splinter and slam invitational. It confirms a heart fit and implies values. Partner is invited to show first round control at the 4 level (100% forcing).

I have sympathy for 3, a cue bid, as partner can now show a stopper with 3 (forcing, because once responder starts a cue bidding sequence, all bids are forcing below game). 3 cannot be a second suit or game try in this sequence, except by prior agreement, because once an 8+ fit is found modern practice requires responder to bid game with an unappealing minimum (a flat 12-13 HCP) or investigate slam. Here, 1 - 1 - 2 - 3 - 3 - 3 would guarantee the A, A or K, and second round control in spades.
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