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RHO opens 4 spades

Poll: RHO opens 4 spades (26 member(s) have cast votes)

p-p-4S-double

  1. take-out? (14 votes [51.85%])

    Percentage of vote: 51.85%

  2. Values? (11 votes [40.74%])

    Percentage of vote: 40.74%

  3. Penalty? (2 votes [7.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.41%

  4. Other? (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

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#1 User is offline   Wackojack 

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Posted 2016-December-15, 11:01

Vul against not, after 2 passes, RHO opens 4. 2 Questions:
1. What is the mainstream use of double for your hand? (If you know the answer of course)
2. What do you think double should mean? Penalty? Take-out? Values? (Whatever that means)or something else

This hand came up:
 QJ95
 97
 AKQ8
 986



If you play double for penalty you are odds on (but not certain) to get a reward.
If you play double showing values god knows where you will land.
If you play double for take-out then you would pass in tempo here and be amazed if partner balanced with a take out double.

OH! Another question. Any different if RHO opens 4?
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#2 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2016-December-15, 14:49

WackoJack writes "Vul against not, after 2 passes, RHO opens 4. 2 Questions:
1. What is the mainstream use of double for your hand? (If you know the answer of course)
2. What do you think double should mean? Penalty? Take-out? Values? (Whatever that means) or something else
If you play double for penalty you are odds on (but not certain) to get a reward.
If you play double showing values god knows where you will land.
If you play double for take-out then you would pass in tempo here and be amazed if partner balanced with a take out double.
OH! Another question. Any different if RHO opens 4?"

I rank
1. Pass = NAT
2. Double = OPT. High card values. Inadvisable, especially opposite a passed partner.

- Some partnerships agree that double of 4 is penalty but most partnerships define the double as values. For example, partner takes out with a reasonable 6 card suit or a two-suiter. Tim Rees says that double shows the cards you hold. But I think he'd disapprove of a trump stack like this.
- Most partnerships require a double of 4 to have primary support or sufficient power to handle a 4 advance. Hence it's more take-out oriented,

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#3 User is online   sfi 

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Posted 2016-December-15, 16:54

It is much more important to let our side get in the auction on more hands than simply increasing the size of the penalty. Hence playing double as pure penalty is a poor choice, and with the posted hand I would just pass.

If you play it as showing values that are suitable for either offence or defence, partner can now make a semi-informed decision about whether or not to compete. That way the number of hands we can win on goes up, which more than offsets the losses when we can't double for penalty.

A double of 4H is similar in nature but partner is more likely to bid 4S. Hence you can reasonably describe it as 'takeout', even though partner will often pass with a flattish hand and nowhere good to go. There is no strict boundary where it becomes pure penalty rather than pure takeout - it's a gradual transition starting at 1C and continuing all the way up.
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#4 User is offline   lycier 

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Posted 2016-December-15, 20:08

Takeout with extra values (14+hcp at least in the almost situations).
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#5 User is offline   SteveMoe 

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Posted 2016-December-15, 20:59

Double is either a v. strong balanced hand or a 3-suit takeout. Partner will leave in with most hands without enough shape to expect the 5-level is safe. 4N is 2P2P.

As for the given hand, it is a poor penalty double if opener is short in . It is also too weak to act if you switch the and . I woudl pass and hope to set them.

We will never get rich waiting for a trump stack when good opponents open 4 bids. Better to have 3 suits or much extra in a balanced hand (better frequency and more penalties).
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#6 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2016-December-16, 13:51

Pass

I think most people play doubles of preempts thru 4 as takeout. Doubles of 4 and higher show values.

Here, you've got a 12 count of which 3 are in the opponent's suit. Partner is a passed hand, so a 5 level contract is unlikely to make. If preemptor has the normal 8+ , partner has at most a stiff and is very likely to pull a double.

You have 2 tricks in the suit and can see that they are in a bad spot. Let them play it there.
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#7 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-January-31, 10:08

The answer depends on how old you are and at what level you play. The traditional meaning was that it showed values and a primarily defensive hand, usually balanced-ish. In this scheme a pure takeout hand had to overcall 4NT. Most modern players instead use 4NT as 2 places to play and the double becomes more takeout oriented, albeit still encompassing a big balanced hand. The difference is somewhat subtle but nonetheless noticeable. The line for a double, and consequently for when partner takes the double out, varies from pair to pair but I do not think any high-level pairs are still playing it in the older style, while some pairs are much more take-out oriented and therefore need to pass some balanced hands that other pairs would double. It is the sort of area where you need to build up a certain degree of experience and trust with a partner before you are optimising your decisions but without a clear line as to what the absolutely optimal solution really is.
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#8 User is online   helene_t 

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Posted 2017-January-31, 10:12

GIB and some of the dinosaurs play it as penalty but it should be t/o. Partner is very unlikely to balance, maybe with x-Axxx-xxxxx-AKx if he is a conservative bidder who doesn't open with that.
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#9 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2017-January-31, 11:18

Its annoying to have to pass here. You might get away with a double since partner wont always pull as a passed hand.
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#10 User is offline   Kaitlyn S 

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Posted 2017-January-31, 13:02

View PostPhil, on 2017-January-31, 11:18, said:

Its annoying to have to pass here. Any you might get away with a double since partner wont always pull as a passed hand.
I wouldn't even attempt double except on the last board of an event. For if I do double and partner has a pull, partner is not going to be in the right frame of mind on the rest of the boards. (To those of you who want to reply "if partner screws up later because of a bad result, get a new partner", I can only say (1) some towns don't have that many decent players and the rest are partnered, or (2) sometimes one is playing with a significant other, and (3) partner-hopping isn't a desirable trait to others who are looking for partners who might think you will bail on them at the first sign of trouble.)

Also, while double of 4H is takeout, I'm not sure this hand is good enough. You don't think you can get caught? I've seen some players make strong 4H and 4S bids in third seat (thinking slam is unlikely) and then reopen with a double to express those values.
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#11 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2017-January-31, 13:46

Most CC's I see mark doubles of preempts as takeout through 4 . Doubles of 4 and above are usually "penalty", but it seems like most people tend to take them as cooperative (i.e. values) than purely penalty.

I'm passing with this hand. 4 doesn't rate to be a particularly good spot, but then again preemptor's partner has not been heard from. With LHO holding the right big hand and with preemptor holding a stiff or void in , 4 could be a make.

If partner finds a reopening double, playing 4 doubled looks a lot better.
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#12 User is offline   Kaitlyn S 

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Posted 2017-January-31, 15:02

View Postrmnka447, on 2017-January-31, 13:46, said:

Most CC's I see mark doubles of preempts as takeout through 4 . Doubles of 4 and above are usually "penalty", but it seems like most people tend to take them as cooperative (i.e. values) than purely penalty.

I'm passing with this hand. 4 doesn't rate to be a particularly good spot, but then again preemptor's partner has not been heard from. With LHO holding the right big hand and with preemptor holding a stiff or void in , 4 could be a make.

If partner finds a reopening double, playing 4 doubled looks a lot better.
4S came after 2 passes. LHO doesn't have a big hand.
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#13 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2017-January-31, 17:36

i think people who call doubles of pre-empts 'values' are people who play takeout doubles but are too indisciplined to pass with more penalty orientated hands and who perforce double and blame partner for not guessing to pass.
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#14 User is offline   xavierf 

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Posted 2017-February-04, 10:56

I would pass, dbl on 4S would be values by us. I don't think this hand is good enough therefore.
If parner reopens with dbl i will pass
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#15 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2017-February-04, 15:22

View Postwank, on 2017-January-31, 17:36, said:

i think people who call doubles of pre-empts 'values' are people who play takeout doubles but are too indisciplined to pass with more penalty orientated hands and who perforce double and blame partner for not guessing to pass.

Haha. The "I wish partner had done something intelligent" double.
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#16 User is offline   broze 

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Posted 2017-February-04, 21:46

On the OP hand unless you are playing pen dbls any call but pass is nuts (with either preempt)
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