[Jinksy]

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Teams. What's your call a) if 4♣ and 5♣ were both fit, b) if 4♣ was fit, 5♣ was void-showing, and c) if 4♣ and 5♣ are undiscussed (and you can't rely on P taking them the way you want him to)?

[MrAce]

4♣

If that was not available then I would bid 4♥ or cue. I am definitely doing something more than just bidding 4♠.

[alok c]

3♥.

[Tramticket]

If the jump in a new suit shows a fit, then 4♣ seems to be right.

If the jump in a new suit is a splinter then 4♦ seems to be right. [Note that partner may well be able to infer that you also hold a heart shortage from partner's heart holding and the opponents' bidding].

If this is undiscussed then I guess you have to cue-bid.

[nige1]

Jinksy "Teams. What's your call a) if 4♣ and 5♣ were both fit, b) if 4♣ was fit, 5♣ was void-showing, and c) if 4♣ and 5♣ are undiscussed (and you can't rely on P taking them the way you want him to)?"

With no firm agreement, I rank
1. 4♥ = SPL.
2. 4♣ = FIT or SPL (ambiguous. but if it's more likely to be the former, perhaps partner can work it out).
3. 3♣ = NAT. F1
4. 3♥ = CUE
5. 4♠ = NAT. Underbid but unambiguous.
6. 4N = RKC. An overbid but might help in high-level competition.

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[wank]

If 2nt is a raise i do that

[broze]

I can't imagine agreeing 5C as anything other than "I want to play 5C".

4C fit seems perfect so I do that. If undiscussed I just make a forcing raise.

[Zelandakh]

broze, on 2016-December-12, 08:35, said:

4C fit seems perfect so I do that.

The problem is that it might also be perfect for the opps to discover their diamond fit if this is a double fit hand. The problem here is that pretty much every reasonable choice might work out well but also might end up being detrimental. 4♠+2 might well score better than 7♥X by them but we cannot even be sure of making anything at all let alone more than them. We cannot even be sure that the opps are not in a 7 card heart fit instead of their 11 card diamond fit. In short, I am not so sure this is a deal to play the hand so much as to play the opps.

Another point that noone has brought up yet but might be relevant is the style of fit jumps in play. For many (most?) 4♣ here would set up forcing passes and show some forward-going interest. Others play their FJs lighter. If we make a forcing raise instead of a FJ and the bidding comes back in 5♥, how happy are we feeling? Are we bidding 5 over 5 anyway or leaving it to partner? This is something the advocates of that approach need to answer. The same is to some extent true of the splinterers and direct raisers but I suppose they at least have the hope of blocking the opps out, perhaps from bidding 5 at all but at the very least from identifying the secondary fit position.

As for what to do, still no idea! Perhaps bid 4♠ if we are weaker than them, 4♣ if we are stronger than them and 3♥ if the opps are timid LOLs. If 4♣ is undefined I guess I can assume partner is fairly weak and in that case I would be content with 4♠. If that works out badly we at least have a good post-mortem learning opportunity.

[jogs]

Zelandakh, on 2016-December-12, 11:50, said:

The problem is that it might also be perfect for the opps to discover their diamond fit if this is a double fit hand. The problem here is that pretty much every reasonable choice might work out well but also might end up being detrimental. 4♠+2 might well score better than 7♥X by them but we cannot even be sure of making anything at all let alone more than them. We cannot even be sure that the opps are not in a 7 card heart fit instead of their 11 card diamond fit. In short, I am not so sure this is a deal to play the hand so much as to play the opps.

Another point that noone has brought up yet but might be relevant is the style of fit jumps in play. For many (most?) 4♣ here would set up forcing passes and show some forward-going interest. Others play their FJs lighter. If we make a forcing raise instead of a FJ and the bidding comes back in 5♥, how happy are we feeling? Are we bidding 5 over 5 anyway or leaving it to partner? This is something the advocates of that approach need to answer. The same is to some extent true of the splinterers and direct raisers but I suppose they at least have the hope of blocking the opps out, perhaps from bidding 5 at all but at the very least from identifying the secondary fit position.

As for what to do, still no idea! Perhaps bid 4♠ if we are weaker than them, 4♣ if we are stronger than them and 3♥ if the opps are timid LOLs. If 4♣ is undefined I guess I can assume partner is fairly weak and in that case I would be content with 4♠. If that works out badly we at least have a good post-mortem learning opportunity.

Do any of us know who's hand this is? 4♣ is an overbid in terms of defense. We certainly have the offense. Is there any way for us to show pard 6-card support? I doubt it. Also it is probably (game theory) wrong to reserve a bid to show 6-card support. It is too unlikely an event. Jump fits should create a forcing pass situation. Still I'm willing to bid 4♣ in this auction.

4♣. Planning to pass if pard rebids 4♠. More likely is opponents contesting in hearts. Then I'm willing to contest up to 5♠. Any slam aspirations will need to come from pard.