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ATB missing 6-2 major fit

#1 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2016-October-13, 06:16



5 made so it was not a disaster, but I think we should had found the major fit.
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#2 User is online   Tramticket 

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Posted 2016-October-13, 06:25

Maybe west could cue-bid 4 over 3, suggesting a choice of places to play? West is quite good in context.
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#3 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2016-October-13, 06:45

IMO west should have bid hearts at either his second or third call, depending on your X-then-bid style. What's the point of 4? It forces you to the four level anyway, and you wouldn't be doing it without the KH as insurance, so why not let P in on the secret?
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#4 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2016-October-13, 07:00

View PostFluffy, on 2016-October-13, 06:16, said:



5 made so it was not a disaster, but I think we should had found the major fit.


To be honest, I would never bid 5 with East hand. I already told my story. I doubled then bid a new suit, pd still passing but I bid 3. No way I am lifting 4 to 5 in case pd did not see my previous actions.
West acted pessimistic at least 2 times. If you guys are overcalling up to 17 hcp, as most people do, DBL and then 1 shows 18+. West had an easy 1 NT over 1. He knows your side has 23+ hcp.
After passing 1 and pd still bidding 3, I think he should do much better than just 4, which is competitive. Depending on your style he needed to DBL 3 or bid 4.
As West I'd DBL 3 (not penalty)

What is the scoring by the way? MP? IMP?
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#5 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2016-October-13, 07:14

Apparently the meaning of x-then-1 was not well understood. Was the agreement murky, or did west just not get the message?
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#6 User is offline   alok c 

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Posted 2016-October-13, 07:17

What 2 by East would have shown instead of 1?After bidding by West,East can reasonably expect for 4 play even with doubleton honours with West.
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#7 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2016-October-13, 08:07

View Postalok c, on 2016-October-13, 07:17, said:

What 2 by East would have shown instead of 1?After bidding by West,East can reasonably expect for 4 play even with doubleton honours with West.



2 would set the trump.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
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#8 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2016-October-13, 08:18

I wouldn't say 2 stablishes trumps unequivocally, but it certainly is not bid on a hand that plays 2 tricks better in diamonds opposite singleton.
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#9 User is offline   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2016-October-13, 08:26

View Postbillw55, on 2016-October-13, 07:14, said:

Was the agreement murky, or did west just not get the message?


I think west got the message, showing a pulse by bidding 4. Over that east can safely bid 4 to show the 6th piece and instead of committing to 5 west will choose the game.
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#10 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2016-October-13, 08:38

View Postggwhiz, on 2016-October-13, 08:26, said:

I think west got the message, showing a pulse by bidding 4. Over that east can safely bid 4 to show the 6th piece and instead of committing to 5 west will choose the game.




And whose fault would it be, if East did not have 6th ?

Kx
AQJxx
KQxx
Ax

And why do you think 4 is some sort of bid that should make East bid again, after all he already done? Would you not compete 4 with W hand after all the noise pd made, with;

xx
xx
Jxxxx
Jxxx

where both 3 and 4 makes?
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"

"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





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#11 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2016-October-13, 09:30

west can introduce hearts over 3D - he's already denied 3 - and it would leave open the prospect of 3NT.

nevermind i didn't see the 3S bid. then i suppose he can bid 4C to offer a choice.
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#12 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2016-October-13, 09:38

View PostMrAce, on 2016-October-13, 07:00, said:

I think he should do much better than just 4, which is competitive. Depending on your style he needed to DBL 3 or bid 4.
As West I'd DBL 3 (not penalty)

Yes West should do better. At the point in the auction where South bid 3, West should know:

1) game in a red suit is a good bet.
2) East might have 5 hearts or might have six.

West can bid 4 as choice of games. If Double is 'not penalty', then it is non-descript and IMO not helpful.
After 4 by West, here is what East knows:

1) West has about the playing strength he actually has.
2) West has only two hearts, lest he would have bid 2 rather than pass, when he had the chance. 4 points would be plenty to do that.

This leaves East a simple task of counting the number of hearts in his hand and passing 4.
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#13 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2016-October-13, 16:27

If I didn't bid 2 (which I can see not doing with just Kx), I'm definitely bidding 4 rather than 4. What's the dime to stop on in 4? We know we have a diamond fit, *I* know we (should) have a heart fit, give partner the choice. So I can't play 4 if 4 is wrong - again, that won't be the last dime I haven't been able to stop on.
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#14 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2016-October-13, 20:30

View Postggwhiz, on 2016-October-13, 08:26, said:

I think west got the message, showing a pulse by bidding 4. Over that east can safely bid 4 to show the 6th piece and instead of committing to 5 west will choose the game.

Agree almost completely it is just plain IMPOSSIBLE for west to have 3 hearts and (not raise 1h to 2h and later bid 4d). That means the 4h bid (don't try to convince me 4h is not offering a place to play) shows a good enough heart suit to play opposite xx or a stiff honor. It is a no risk bid on the way to 5d to possibly the last makeable spot.
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#15 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2016-October-13, 20:30

View Postggwhiz, on 2016-October-13, 08:26, said:

I think west got the message, showing a pulse by bidding 4. Over that east can safely bid 4 to show the 6th piece and instead of committing to 5 west will choose the game.

Agree almost completely it is just plain IMPOSSIBLE for west to have 3 hearts and (not raise 1h to 2h and later bid 4d). That means the 4h bid (don't try to convince me 4h is not offering a place to play) shows a good enough heart suit to play opposite xx or a stiff honor. It is a no risk bid on the way to 5d to possibly the last makeable spot.
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#16 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2016-October-13, 23:24

View PostFluffy, on 2016-October-13, 06:16, said:



5 made so it was not a disaster, but I think we should had found the major fit.


As a couple others have mentioned, West should bid 4H over 3S, not 4D.

No, West's pass after 1S did not show 2 or fewer hearts. He could easily have 3 hearts with a 1 count. But if West has enough to bid 4D, then with 3H, he probably would raise 1H to 2H. Moreover, Kx isn't so bad even opposite a decent five-card suit.
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#17 User is offline   GrahamJson 

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Posted 2016-October-14, 02:41

It seems to me that east is more to blame here. I would have bid 2H rather than 1H initially. However if the auction went as it did east should certainty bid 4H rather than 5D. I'm not convinced that west should have bid 4H rather than 4D. At that point he is looking to win the part score so 4D looks safer.
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#18 User is offline   aawk 

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Posted 2016-October-14, 05:29

If east bid 4 instead of 5 it shows a strong (started with a double then introduce a new suit shows 16+ HCP) x64x pattern and let partner decide to pass or bid 5.
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#19 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2016-October-14, 05:56

View PostGrahamJson, on 2016-October-14, 02:41, said:

It seems to me that east is more to blame here. I would have bid 2H rather than 1H initially. However if the auction went as it did east should certainty bid 4H rather than 5D. I'm not convinced that west should have bid 4H rather than 4D. At that point he is looking to win the part score so 4D looks safer.


You are not convinced that W should bid 4 rather than 4.
But you want East, to bid forever.
Look at the actions he took so far. DBL and then bid a new suit, which is pretty much 18+, seeing his pd still pass he then bid 3.

I am sure you all would blame E for keep on bidding after he already told his story if he bid 4 and found W with

Jxx
xx
Jxxxx
xxx


losing 1+2ruff+1+2. -800 or -300 out of nowhere instead of +130 !! ATB comments would be like " Did E know there are also green cards in the box?" Posted Image


Cheers!
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"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"

"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





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#20 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2016-October-14, 05:59

View PostMrAce, on 2016-October-13, 07:00, said:

To be honest, I would never bid 5 with East hand. I already told my story. I doubled then bid a new suit, pd still passing but I bid 3. No way I am lifting 4 to 5 in case pd did not see my previous actions.
West acted pessimistic at least 2 times. If you guys are overcalling up to 17 hcp, as most people do, DBL and then 1 shows 18+. West had an easy 1 NT over 1. He knows your side has 23+ hcp.
After passing 1 and pd still bidding 3, I think he should do much better than just 4, which is competitive. Depending on your style he needed to DBL 3 or bid 4.
As West I'd DBL 3 (not penalty)

What is the scoring by the way? MP? IMP?


Changing the West hand slightly



As East I would want to be in a diamond game opposite such meager values, though of course it is anything but cold. .
East does not just have 18 HCP. He does have on top a 6421 distribution with a fit for partner and West bidding 4 says he can not be totally broke.

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