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Kokish The wrong way round?

#1 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2016-August-18, 09:37

Looking for some guidance .

My favourite partner and I play Kokish over a 2 opening. We bid 20-22- the slow way, mainly since this allows us to play in 3 and show a couple of other hands. Anyway, the problem with this approach arises when a spade contract is reached via Puppet (or any variety of) Stayman.

Neither this issue nor the extra hand-types we get to show come up pretty much ever. So is there a clear advantage one way the other? (The other NT range in 2 is 25+).
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#2 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2016-August-18, 10:17

View PostVampyr, on 2016-August-18, 09:37, said:

Looking for some guidance .

My favourite partner and I play Kokish over a 2NT opening. We bid 20-22- the slow way, mainly since this allows us to play in 3 and show a couple of other hands. Anyway, the problem with this approach arises when a spade contract is reached via Puppet (or any variety of) Stayman.

Neither this issue nor the extra hand-types we get to show come up pretty much ever. So is there a clear advantage one way the other? (The other NT range in 2 is 25+).

I think Welland-Auken play

2-?:

2 = 5+ H or waiting
...2 = 20-21 bal. / 5+ H, GF values
......P = 5+ H, very weak (assumes Opener has 20-21 bal.!!)
......(...)
...(...)
2 = 5+ S
...2 = 20-21 bal.
...(...)
(...),

which solves the right-siding problem and enables them to stop in 2M, the latter being an advantage of the "slow = weaker" approach.
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#3 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2016-August-18, 11:22

View Postnullve, on 2016-August-18, 10:17, said:

I think Welland-Auken play

2-?:

2 = 5+ H or waiting
...2 = 20-21 bal. / 5+ H, GF values
......P = 5+ H, very weak (assumes Opener has 20-21 bal.!!)
......(...)
...(...)
2 = 5+ S
...2 = 20-21 bal.
...(...)
(...),

which solves the right-siding problem and enables them to stop in 2M, the latter being an advantage of the "slow = weaker" approach.


That is interesting. Obviously we can also stop in 2M; it doesn't matter which way round for that purpose, but of course these contracts are always wrong-sided. I like the W/A methods.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#4 User is offline   iandayre 

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Posted 2016-August-18, 11:44

I don't follow this, Kokish is played over a strong artificial 2C opening bid, not 2NT.
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#5 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2016-August-18, 13:17

View Postiandayre, on 2016-August-18, 11:44, said:

I don't follow this, Kokish is played over a strong artificial 2C opening bid, not 2NT.


LOL just a typo. I will fix.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#6 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2016-August-18, 15:30

View PostVampyr, on 2016-August-18, 09:37, said:

Looking for some guidance .

My favourite partner and I play Kokish over a 2 opening. We bid 20-22- the slow way, mainly since this allows us to play in 3 and show a couple of other hands. Anyway, the problem with this approach arises when a spade contract is reached via Puppet (or any variety of) Stayman.

Neither this issue nor the extra hand-types we get to show come up pretty much ever. So is there a clear advantage one way the other? (The other NT range in 2 is 25+).

I've been told that the reason for playing the weaker range through Kokish is that you can combine it with transfers to allow you to play in 3C/D opposite a weak hand.
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
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#7 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2016-August-18, 16:14

View Postgordontd, on 2016-August-18, 15:30, said:

I've been told that the reason for playing the weaker range through Kokish is that you can combine it with transfers to allow you to play in 3C/D opposite a weak hand.


Yes, that is our main reason but the trouble is that it rarely comes up, and one disadvantage is that with the vastly more frequent 20/21 all spade contracts are wrong sided.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#8 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2016-August-18, 17:31

View PostVampyr, on 2016-August-18, 09:37, said:

Neither this issue nor the extra hand-types we get to show come up pretty much ever. So is there a clear advantage one way the other? (The other NT range in 2 is 25+).


Absolutely. Playing it the unusual way round, you get to call it 'Diet Kokish'.
The "4 is a transfer to 4" award goes to Jinksy - PhilKing
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#9 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2016-August-18, 19:34

View PostJinksy, on 2016-August-18, 17:31, said:

Absolutely. Playing it the unusual way round, you get to call it 'Diet Kokish'.


:P Which way is unusual though? When we started playing it this way, we didn't know if anyone else had ever done so, but it seems to be popular now.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#10 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2016-August-20, 05:49

Hmm... I guess if there's a clear flow you go against it, otherwise just position yourself firmly on the wrong side of epistemology.
The "4 is a transfer to 4" award goes to Jinksy - PhilKing
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