[jillybean]

DrTodd13, on Apr 12 2005, 11:41 AM, said:

If you as a TD want to remain totally oblivious of the rules of bridge and ignore these flowcharts then YOU MUST state in your tournament description that the laws of bridge do not apply and that you will make whatever judgement you like based on whatever criteria strikes your fancy at the moment.

Does anyone read the rules?

I bet only a fraction of players actually read the tournament rules. TD's would have half the problems they do now if people did read the rules! I think players just signup for what ever tournaments are available, if they have a bad experience perhaps they dont play in thats TD's tournament again. Most do not seem to expect a flawless director as a few here do. (I always offer a full refund if there is a complaint. ) A lot of the people who have problems with calls and rulings are in fact helpful and gracious - sad that its the other ones who make all the noise, stand out and do nothing to help.

There are tournaments ranging from ACBL to "playing TD, no adjustment, get your own sub", all seem to have a following. You can pick the ones you want to play in, leave the rest.

jillybean2

[hotShot]

The main problems are:

A) Misdescription: no Alert, Hand not matching, language communication problems, ......
B ) rude behaviour ( too often )
C) UI given by table talk or intentional delayed action
D) Unfinished boards / Slow play
E) intentionally leaving player / disconnected player
F) Is a board unplayable for a sub. => Adjustment

A-C are covered by the bridge laws,
D slow play is handled by the laws, but the board is played to an end. A later board is skipped. In f2f bridge a TD can find out who is playing slow.
Online it is hardly possible.
D-F I've almost never seen, a player leaving a f2f tourney. There are not sub's in f2f tourneys.

If a TD is busy at a table in f2f tourney, he does not call for the round to change, so he has all the time he needs to deal with the problem.
Online, when you start to question the player, they might be gone because the round change happend.

Since i turned of lobby chat, i no longer get "sub needed" messsages. I'm not the only one who turned the noise off, so getting subs is getting harder.

[luke warm]

guggie, on Apr 13 2005, 12:03 PM, said:

I still dont get the point of Dr Todd. If you want to run a t on BBO with strict ruling, careful weighing of appeals, of alert failures, adjusts, you need 1 internationally qualified TD for 10 pairs, These TD's still would spend the main part of their highly qualified time with subbing en prodding slow tables on. Where do you find these TD's? How can you pay their value? Such a tournament (with appeal committee) would cost 10-20-50$?

If Dr Todd just assumes that every tournament unless otherwise stated has no qualified TD and thus (in his view) inferior quality, he can skip al these tournaments and go to the qualified ones.

i don't think that's the thrust of todd's argument, gullie... it isn't *only* that so many rulings are just flat wrong, the big issue for me is that so few tds actually *care*... you shouldn't have to pay a td to care whether or not they know what they're doing

how can a person not want to improve at whatever endeavor they attempt? it seems 2nd nature to me...

i see nothing wrong with or hard about posting "recognized bridge laws may or may not be followed in this tourney"

[rigour6]

I see 5 things wrong with actually posting something that says hey we don't follow offical bridge rules here:

1) It's an invitation to chaos on the part of the players, saying well I don't need to follow rules.

2) It undercuts the authority of the TD, such as it is. More abuse along the lines of "you aren't even a real TD, don't follow the rules!"

3) Nobody reads the rules anyway, so people are still going to be surprised and mad when the rules aren't followed.

4) Surely we should make some effort to move close to the rules, even if they're observed in the breach.

5) OK, I have posted that I am not following official rules. Just what the heck am I following? Are deuces wild? More questions and confusion.

6) What have we gained? If people don't realize we don't follow official rules all the time, it won't take them long to find out. It's like posting "sometimes in life, crap happens".



Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.

[luke warm]

Quote

1)  It's an invitation to chaos on the part of the players, saying well I don't need to follow rules.

according to some of the things i've read from some tds, all this would do is be an admission of what they already do (and some even seem proud of it)

Quote

2) It undercuts the authority of the TD, such as it is.

you mean the authority to say "it's my tourney, i'll run it anyway i want... "

Quote

3)  Nobody reads the rules anyway, so people are still going to be surprised and mad when the rules aren't followed.

how would they know?

Quote

4)  Surely we should make some effort to move close to the rules, even if they're observed in the breach.

i agree... i haven't seen many tds who actually want to improve though, have you? most seem deathly afraid of criticism

Quote

5)  OK, I have posted that I am not following official rules.  Just what the heck am I following?  Are deuces wild?  More questions and confusion.

excellent question... why not ask some of them 'what the heck' they're following?

Quote

6)  What have we gained?  If people don't realize we don't follow official rules all the time, it won't take them long to find out.  It's like posting "sometimes in life, crap happens".

so what? it's true isn't it? what you gain is an honest view of how many people will actually play in a tourney where the td admits what some have said on the forums - that not only do they *not* follow recognized rules but they also don't care what anyone thinks about it

Quote

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.

huh?

[inquiry]

luke warm, on Apr 13 2005, 08:33 PM, said:

Quote

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.

huh?

Python Dude, python...Python sound clip

[luke warm]

ahh yes thanks

[Brandal]

hrothgar, on Apr 12 2005, 07:00 AM, said:

With this said and done... The role of tournament director is, by definition, a public one. More importantly, an individual who claims the role of TD director deliberately establishes themselves as an authority figure.

I find it surprising that individuls believe that they should be able to claim this function while simultaneously maintaining the expection that that should be shielded from any public criticism regarding performance.

I agree with you when it comes to pay-tourneys and
other tourneys where TD seems to create a high level
environment on rulings etc.

I think it's a huge "market" for "Fun tournaments".

How many free tournaments a day would we have if TD's
had to undergo training,and accept to be judged mainly by
those who feel they were treated unfair?

Why can't each player control where he wants to play based
on his/hers experience with a certain TD?

What good can possibly come from creating hostility between
players and TD's?

We "all" know that bridgeplayers who claim to be right,are not
an easy crowd.......and very difficult when they "have" to

[rigour6]

I agree, let's be honest about that. A fair number of players (present company excluded of course) combine the ability to ignore rules which would hurt them in a given situation with the arrogance of divine infallibility.

I've had quite long and nasty arguments with players on rulings that to be honest were absolutely clear-cut against them. And when I say "clear-cut" I place that in the context of me being a moron.

Being a TD isn't exactly fun. Not for me anyway. I try to host 2 or 3 tourneys a day because that's my way of supporting a site and a game I believe in.

To me, playing in a tourney is one of the more enjoyable ways to play for fun, because it allows me some meaurement of how I do. Obviously not a great measurement, let's be honest a 4 board tourney is in large part an exercise in seeing who is lucky, but then again so is a 16 board tourney it just lowers that factor a bit. That's why I do it and that's why I host, so others can enjoy.

This is not an excuse for bad direction. I do feel I make an honest effort to try and follow the rules, but my ingrained idiocy struggles hard against that will. (If you think my direction is bad you should see my declarer play.)

Anyway, I have said before and will say again I support any effort which encourages TDs to improve in a no-fail environment but I very much don't want to discourage TDs in any way. I'll be very honest, as a TD I have had a substantial number of unpleasant interactiosn with players. Only my commitment to the site and the game has kept me going - I certainly wouldn't still be TDing regularly if I went by how much fun it is. Which I don't say in an oh woe is me voice, I don't expect flowers and bows.

I don't know but I suspect there's a substantial group of TDs who sign up keen, run a few tourneys, and get the enthusiasm beaten out of them by rudeness. They then revert to either TDing only tourneys they play in, not TDing, and maybe not even playing at all. Not everyone is a thickskinned old fart like me.

Again, not excusing bad direction but I am saying TDs are doing us a favour, not the other way around.

[jw_nl]

Rigour, I couldn't describe my feelings about directing on BBO better than you did above. I had a number of bad experiences in a short time and had even to switch off enemychat in order to get rid off the offences and questions of some nasty players who weren't happy with my decisions. I have stopped directing for a month or so and recently resumed directing.
In one case it was a starplayer who wasn't happy with my ruling. No TD is infallible and I might have been wrong in this case. I just did my best to make the right ruling.

In the Netherlands we have a few levels for directing. The Dutch Bridge Federation has 3 trainings-courses for TD-ing. The first step is Club-TD-A. This TD can handle the simple problems during clubmeetings. The second step is Club-TD-B. Most problems can be solved by this type of TD, almost all adjustments included. The third step is the Federal TD. This TD can handle the federal competitions. Another step in the TD-world is International TD.

Demanding that every BBO-TD has the highest level isn't realistic. A lot a BBO-TD's don't even know the colour of the lawbook. And is that a problem? No, not at all. The main problem is that a player doesn't know the level of the TD who is directing a tournament. If he knows in advance that the skillevel of the TD is lower than he would like, he may choose for not playing in that tournament.
So it would be nice to have an indication of the level of the TD's. For example : let's have a scale from 1 (knows nothing) to 9 (international TD) Above I mentioned the levels in the Netherlands. Federal TD could get level 8. Club-TD-B could be level 6. Club-TD-A could be level 4. Levels 2 to 3 for the players who have read about the laws. Higher levels are possible for not certified players who proved to have good knowledge.

Suppose all BBO-TD's choose the level they think they have. In this way I would be a BBO-TD-level 5. The first self-declared BBO-TD-level-5 but it is an advantage if my TD level is set automatically in the tournamentdescription. I will not have any longer players in my tourneys who have (too) high expectations. Of course I will do my best and if players don't agree with my rulings, I would prefer the existence of a BBO-General Appeal Committee. Players and TD's could ask the committee to review my ruling.
After a number of bad rulings the committee might decide to lower my TD-level. I wouldn't have any problem with such a system.

Jan Willem

[Walddk]

jillybean2, on Apr 14 2005, 10:24 AM, said:

delete delete delete
sigh

Yes, what would we do without that key?

Roland

[scoob]

any chance there's a tutorial online that teaches everything a certified TD would know, but doesn't actually provide certification?

i would gladly host BBO tourneys but have never bothered simply because i've never TD'd and my familiarity with the laws is minimal at best.

[shoeless]

Seems to me when a topic returns again and again, BBO might want to find some mechanisms to facilitate improvement. I appreciate that BBO does not wish to actively participate in directing tournaments or in the qualifying or certifying of directors. But it does appear that there is a quality issue at hand that might be worthwhile addressing. I have submitted suggestions on other threads about this issue and the silence was deafing in response. Can generally supporting the development of more qualified directors (without going on a witch hunt or weeding out campaign) be such a onerous thing to do? Is finding a way to make the rules and rulings readily clickable somewhere in support of the director too resource intensive? Can we borrow Roland from Vugraph for 6 months to whip this thing into shape? We teach and mentor players all over this site these days - might we do the same for directors? Reactively we can easily say 'I don't see anyone standing up to do this' -proactively we might just quietly ask around to see if there is someone who has the skill and willingness to do it.

[guggie]

I have until now directed on average 2 IMP tournaments a week. What do I do?
1. subbing
2. adjusting
3. mind the time (hurry up slow tables)
4. give warnings about non - alerts, with the odd adjusted score
5. give warnings about non-english
6. give warnings or remove players with rude behaviour

Subbing is the most time consuming, anyway if you want to match the sub to the partner-to-be. Adjusting is the hardest part, especially (ofcourse) if only a few tricks are played. But if you do not adjust, you put a premium on intentionally slow play.
Score correction based on non-alerts is a relatively rare phenomenon, and in my view the only part in which formal knowledge of the rules should be required.

In my view, the other parts of directing are much more important to create a friendly athmosfere tournament. In about one of 10 tournamenst I give an adjusted score based on my non-certified interpretation of the bridge rules. If I have to study to be a certified international TD I will not be able to log in on BBO for the next 4 yrs. To make DrTodd happy that my 1-in-10 tournaments ruling is 95% correct instead of the 80% (rough estimate) it is now.

Wow