[Chamaco]

Hi all ! :-)

I am i the process of making some "homeworks" on suit combinations, and I have noticed that I am having some problems in getting right the combinations where one has to run an unsuported honor (to try dropping from opps a keycard).

However, there are other cases where running the hinor is not the right play.

For example, with
AK9x
Jx

I would have run the J to add some possibilities to drop the T, and then finessed the 9 later, but I discovered the right play is low to the J.

Also, with
AQxxx
J9x

I would seriously consider to finesse the Q and later run the J if it succeeds, but it is not right.

Yes, I know the best way to handle suit combos is to try and figure out the layout, but usually, a few mnemotechnical rule save a lot of time at the table, provided they are used with a grain of salt.

I already have Roudinesco's Encyclopaedia of suit combinations, (where he suggests quite a few mnemotechnical rules), but I don't think there are any listed for leading unsupported honors.

So, does anyone know of some rules for leading unsupported honors ?

Thanks ! :-)

[MickyB]

Chamaco, on Apr 11 2005, 07:41 AM, said:

I already have Roudinesco's Encyclopaedia of suit combinations

Lucky....so-and-so! Where did you get it? Can I borrow it?

I'm interested to hear that some of these things have been reduced to mnemonics, it seems too complex for that.

[Chamaco]

MickyB, on Apr 11 2005, 09:31 AM, said:

Chamaco, on Apr 11 2005, 07:41 AM, said:

I already have Roudinesco's Encyclopaedia of suit combinations

Lucky....so-and-so! Where did you get it? Can I borrow it?

I'm interested to hear that some of these things have been reduced to mnemonics, it seems too complex for that.

Roudinesco's book is divided into chapter: each chapter deals with specific missing honors (e.g. Missing A and J. missing K and Q, etc etc etc).

At the beginning of every chapter there is a checklist of a handful of mnemotechnical rules : which manoeuvre to take vs which honors, given shortness or not.

There are not rules for leading unsupported honors, though

[hotShot]

Chamaco, on Apr 11 2005, 07:41 AM, said:

Hi all ! :-)


For example, with
AK9x
Jx

I would have run the J to add some possibilities to drop the T, and then finessed the 9 later, but I discovered the right play is low to the J.

Also, with
AQxxx
J9x

I would seriously consider to finesse the Q and later run the J if it succeeds, but it is not right.

1) If 2 cards are missing the rule is to try for the lower one first.
2) Prefer the impass ( because it is an expath for the higher honor at the same time)

First case:
2 cards missing QT, so go for the T first.
=> small to the J
You don't need to finesse now, because opps most times are 3-2 distributed, and you need to finesse the T only if distribution ist 4-1 or 5-0. And it will only work if opps length is in front of your length.

Second case:
2 cards missing KT, so go for the T first.
=> small to the 9J
Same argument as above you will win the J or opps will have to take the K, or you hope for 3-2 distribution, or need opps length in front of yours.

3) If 3 cards are missing hope for distributed values and try the lowest first
2) Prefer the impass ( because it is an expath for the higher honor at the same time)

In unusual suit combination Fred had:
Qxx

K9xx

AJT missing => go for the T first
=> small to the 9K

Here you need to finesse, because opps hold 6 cards usually 4-2 distributed (if 3-3 this is no problem) and you need to catch the T or draw the A with the 9.

Please check you book for exceptions, i'd like to know them

[Chamaco]

Hotshot said:

1) If 2 cards are missing the rule is to try for the lower one first.
2) Prefer the impass ( because it is an expath for the higher honor at the same time)

..........

Roudi's mnemotechnical rules are somewhat more complicated.

Given the basic that:

with < 11 cards finesse the K
with < 9 cards finess the Q
with < 7 cards finesse the J

This applies if it's the only missing honor.

If 2 honors are missing, the second is "promoted " by one.

E.g.
- you miss K and Q: the Q is "promoted" to K, so you will finesse the Q only if having 11+ cards
- you miss A+J: the J is promoted to Q, so you finesse for it if you have <9 cards

If 3 honors are missing, the second is "promoted " by one, the 3rd is promoted by 2.

E.g.
- you miss AJT and Q: the J is promoted to Q (promoted by 1) and the T is promoted also to Q (promoted by 2) : so you start by finessing against the ten if you have less than 9 cards. If you have 9+ cards, you finesse against the Ace.
- you miss AQT: the Q is promoted to K and the T is promoted to Q: finesse vs the T if < 9 cards, finesse vs the Q if holding 11+ cards.
- etc etc.


The above listed rules are only "general" rules.
For each combination of missing honors, there are more "rules of thumb" devised and explained by Roudinesco.



However, there are indeed quite a few intrafinesse possibilities that, even with Roudi's rules, are not straightforward, and I was wondering whether there was some mnemotechnic rule to have the task easier at the table.
I guess not :-(

[MickyB]

hotShot, on Apr 11 2005, 12:00 PM, said:

AQxxx
J9x

Second case:
2 cards missing KT, so go for the T first.
=> small to the 9J
Same argument as above you will win the J or opps will have to take the K, or you hope for 3-2 distribution, or need opps length in front of yours.

I think the right way to play the suit is to cash the ace - you are always ok on any 3-2, you are ok if 4-1 with T singleton, can never pick up KTxx without being psychic, so cash the ace to pick up K singleton. Disclaimer: I am bad at suit combinations!

Edit: It is actually best to lead small to the ace, then if the ten appears you can play the queen to make all five tricks when there is KT doubleton onside.

[Echognome]

Depending on what those x's are you probably will not be able to pick up KTxx regardless.

You can also play for Tx doubleton on right for 5 tricks.

An example of leading an unsupported honour.

For 4 tricks
A109xx
Qx

Leading Q as good as leading to 9 (or 10).

[Gerben42]

AK9x

Jx

In this suit combination if you run the Jack it will either go
JKQx or JxxQ. Have you won anything? You now need to drop or finesse the 10 to make an extra trick.

In general it is better to lead towards honors instead of leading them. If you play small to the Jack you have a 3rd trick whenever East has the Q. If he doesn't you can still finesse the 9.

AQxxx

J9x

For 4 tricks notice that if they are 3-2 that you do not care about where any honor is, you have AQJ. If they are 4-1 you have 40% chance of success pinning a singleton honor under the Ace if you play it.

Making a finesse to the 9 gives up an easy trick to the 10, small to the Jack is the same as cashing the ace except for singleton King behind the Jack.

[Chamaco]

Gerben42, on Apr 11 2005, 02:46 PM, said:

AQxxx

J9x

For 4 tricks notice that if they are 3-2 that you do not care about where any honor is, you have AQJ. If they are 4-1 you have 40% chance of success pinning a singleton honor under the Ace if you play it.

Making a finesse to the 9 gives up an easy trick to the 10, small to the Jack is the same as cashing the ace except for singleton King behind the Jack.

In this case the doubt was not whether to lead low to the 9 or J, but rather whether to run the J or not, maybe after tryng the 1st round finesse to the Q.

Anyways the point of this post is not how to handle this specific suit, but rather if there is a rule to remember for when running an unsupported honor hoping to drop another.

And of course, I am not that dumb not to know the general principle that it is better to lead low TO the high cards: but since there are quite a few card combos where you increase chances by leading unsupported honors, I'd like to know if there are some rules helping to remember them and discriminate them from the more standard cases where you lead a low card instead:
as I said in the post, I am aware that working out the single specific case is usually better AND instructive, but when you are at the table, with little time, a few guidelines usually help to restrict the thoughts to the essential thinking.

[luke warm]

mauro, concerning the hand in question ron klinger calls it the 'rule of 12'... it means, add the total number of cards in the suit (8 this time, and this rule is for a hand with 8, 9, or 10 cards)... to this, add the number of cards in internal sequence... here you have the Q and J... so 8 + 2 = 10... according to klinger, do not run the jack (given entries back)... lead low to the queen, come back, *then* run the jack


imagine AQTxx opposite J9x... that's 8+4=12... in this case, run the jack (or 9)... same for AQTxx opposite Jxxx... 9+3=12, so it's safe to run the jack