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Strong NT system question

#1 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2016-March-09, 09:32

Suppose you have a 2344 weak NT, no stop in hearts. You're playing a strong NT system and it goes

1C/1D (whichever you open)-(2H)-2S-p

What is the correct bid here?

The reason I'm asking is because partner and I are thinking of switching from weak NT to strong, and it'd be a good idea to get niggles like this sorted out before staring to play it :) I've seen some strong club systems use the cuebid (3H) as a "help me please partner" bid in situations like this, but that could get you awfully high when partner, holding an invitational hand, still has no idea whether you have enough for game or not. Is some sort of artificial 2NT needed?

Thanks,

ahydra
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#2 User is offline   akwoo 

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Posted 2016-March-09, 11:45

If you open 1D on these hands, then a 3C rebid is playable here.

You can give up the natural 2N for a good/bad 2N, but there are times when you want to play 2N, and you also give up the possibility of having the natural auction 1D-(2H)-2S-(P)-2N-(P)-3N, which leaks a lot less information than any other auction to 3N.
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#3 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2016-March-09, 11:55

I don't think 3 with that hand is practical. You need 3 for one-suited hands too strong for a NF 3m rebid, and 3 can't cover both I think.

1 followed by 3 is exactly the reason why most open 1 with this hand. Otherwise you just have to swallow a 2nt rebid without a stopper.
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#4 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2016-March-09, 14:49

I would open 1, but I am happy rebidding a natural non-forcing 2NT. If you like, you can have an ongoing partner making a checkback bid like 3 to show or deny a stop there, so you can have some protection if you are going to 3NT.
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#5 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2016-March-09, 15:49

I am interested to read responses of the T-Walsh players who open 1C on these hands
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#6 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2016-March-09, 18:26

you can just rebid no trumps. partner can check you have a stop. if partner doubles at the 3 level you have to pass.

don't forget that when rho doesn't raise, it often means partner's got values there.
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#7 User is offline   WesleyC 

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Posted 2016-March-09, 21:58

I would pick between 2NT, 3C, 3H or 3S based on the nature of the hand.

Jxx, T9x or similar in hearts would make me lean towards 2NT.

HH and some Hx in spade you can make a simple raise to 3S.

Chunky holdings in both minors might try 3C.

And with a maximum I might stretch with 3H (although this depends a bit on partnership agreements).
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#8 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2016-March-10, 04:01

View Post1eyedjack, on 2016-March-09, 15:49, said:

I am interested to read responses of the T-Walsh players who open 1C on these hands

It has been observed by others that T-Walsh and unbalanced diamond openers all loose out on preemption over 1C openings, which tends to get overloaded.
If you believe in interference against strong club system, you should do likewise against those.

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#9 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2016-March-10, 04:17

View Postahydra, on 2016-March-09, 09:32, said:

Suppose you have a 2344 weak NT, no stop in hearts. You're playing a strong NT system and it goes

1C/1D (whichever you open)-(2H)-2S-p

What is the correct bid here?

The reason I'm asking is because partner and I are thinking of switching from weak NT to strong, and it'd be a good idea to get niggles like this sorted out before staring to play it :) I've seen some strong club systems use the cuebid (3H) as a "help me please partner" bid in situations like this, but that could get you awfully high when partner, holding an invitational hand, still has no idea whether you have enough for game or not. Is some sort of artificial 2NT needed?

Thanks,

ahydra

This is the main argument people make for oepning 1 with 4-4 in the minors.
If you open 1 you are forced to bid 2NT, relying on that RHO has not raised and preemptor rarely has a solid suit.

This scenario is essentially an advertisement for negative free bids at the two level.
A negative free bid is not weak but constructive with a good suit, but it is not forcing.
Nine times out of ten people make the same suit bid with the same hand whether they play 2 forcing here or not.
Only the negative free bidders are in a much more comfortable position, while others get too high.
The forcing 2 frequently hold a hand where they have to choose between overbidding (forcing their partner) or getting stolen blind, if they pass or negative double.
When responder has a truly game forcing hand playing negative double he either jumps to 3 which is strong with a good six card suit or doubles and bids spades later, which shows a game forcing hand with a 5 card suit or six mediocre spades.
The scenario that you might get preempted (LHO jump raises preemptor to a high level) when responder has a game forcing hand almost never happens in practice.

Rainer Herrmann
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#10 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2016-March-10, 06:04

I play twalsh, and as said above, bid 2NT over a natural forcing-for-one-bid 2 from responder, assuming from the OP that it was forcing.

However, I am in three minds as to how to handle WJOs here :

(1) Natural and forcing is easy, together with a values (penalty orientated) double. However, over a non-jump overcall I like 2 to be non-forcing, and if they have a normal WJO in hearts, it is quite likely responder may have a similar hand in spades, and it is a shame to lose that.

(2) A negative free bid (NFB) that is non-forcing misses out when responder wishes to double them for penalty. Double for me is a hand with some values and hearts, no long suit, not good enough for 3NT (or prefer to double), where the knowledge that opener also has a couple of hearts means that you do not expect their contract to make. This is not uncommon. (If opener does not have 2+ hearts, he will have 6 clubs and take the double out to 3.) If a "GF with 5 spades" hand is forced to double when playing NFB then you miss out on this.

(3) In some other circumstances I play transfers over a WJO, starting with double, but not after a strong NT, and as we open 1 with a weak NT hand, it should not apply here for the same penalty reason.

Thoughts, anyone? I am leaning towards NFB with a forcing 2NT response. A GF hand with a 6 card spade suit can make a forcing 3 bid, and a 5 card (maybe 4 card?) spade suit can start 2NT and see how it develops. The "natural 2NT hand" will double for penalty. Is this workable? Any idea of how bidding should go after the forcing 2NT?
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#11 User is offline   Caitlynne 

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Posted 2016-March-10, 10:07

The standard rebid is 3C if you opened 1D. If you opened 1C, you now have witnessed why it is generally recommended to open 1D with 4-4 in the minors. (Of course, some players would rebid 2NT without a stopper - and, among these players, some operate in partnerships in which responder is required to check back for a stopper with 3H.)
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#12 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2016-March-10, 10:19

View Postrhm, on 2016-March-10, 04:01, said:

It has been observed by others that T-Walsh and unbalanced diamond openers all loose out on preemption over 1C openings, which tends to get overloaded.
If you believe in interference against strong club system, you should do likewise against those.

Which leads to the argument for combining the unbalanced diamond with a strong club so as to combine the disadvantages together.


View Postrhm, on 2016-March-10, 04:17, said:

This scenario is essentially an advertisement for negative free bids at the two level.

Is it? It seems like an advertisement for playing transfers to me for similar reasons to those of Swedish Club.
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#13 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2016-March-10, 11:23

View PostZelandakh, on 2016-March-10, 10:19, said:

Is it? It seems like an advertisement for playing transfers to me for similar reasons to those of Swedish Club.

Of course there are other mainly artificial possibilities.
But playing transfers makes it difficult to stop in 2, when responder has say 5 spades and opener two or three unless transfers start with double, in which case I do not know what you do with 4144,

Rainer Herrmann
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#14 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2016-March-10, 14:15

View Post1eyedjack, on 2016-March-09, 15:49, said:

I am interested to read responses of the T-Walsh players who open 1C on these hands

We play 2 is nonforcing (6 spades) and Transfer Lebensohl (3 INV+ with 5+ spades).
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#15 User is offline   iandayre 

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Posted 2016-March-10, 15:17

View Posthelene_t, on 2016-March-09, 11:55, said:

I don't think 3 with that hand is practical. You need 3 for one-suited hands too strong for a NF 3m rebid, and 3 can't cover both I think.

1 followed by 3 is exactly the reason why most open 1 with this hand. Otherwise you just have to swallow a 2nt rebid without a stopper.


I couldn't have said it better <_<
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#16 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2016-March-10, 15:17

View Postmgoetze, on 2016-March-10, 14:15, said:

We play 2 is nonforcing (6 spades) and Transfer Lebensohl (3 INV+ with 5+ spades).

May I ask you to elaborate a little?
2 = to play
2NT = transfer to clubs, to play or better
3 = transfer to diamonds, to play or better
3 = transfer to spades, invitational or better
3 = 6 card GF
?

If this is it, I could happily take this as a base. It meets my needs, if I extend the 2NT bid to alternatively mean other things, such as the 4 spades takeout, which can then be shown by using the possible rebids over 3.
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#17 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2016-March-10, 17:26

View PostfromageGB, on 2016-March-10, 15:17, said:

May I ask you to elaborate a little?
2 = to play
2NT = transfer to clubs, to play or better
3 = transfer to diamonds, to play or better
3 = transfer to spades, invitational or better
3 = 6 card GF
?

If this is it, I could happily take this as a base. It meets my needs, if I extend the 2NT bid to alternatively mean other things, such as the 4 spades takeout, which can then be shown by using the possible rebids over 3.

We basically just treat 1-(2) exactly the same as 1NT-(2), which in our case means

2NT = Clubs INV+ or signoff in diamonds or "slow" 3NT bid (with stopper)
3 = Diamonds INV+
3 = Spades INV+
3 = Short in hearts, typically 3145
3 = Would show the minors over a 1NT opening, here exceptionally it is a transfer to 3NT, typically showing an antipositional stopper such as Axx or JT9x.
3NT = "fast" 3NT bid (values but no stopper)

Analogously over 1-(2):

2NT = Clubs INV+ or signoff in diamonds or hearts or "slow" 3NT
3 = Diamonds INV+
3 = Hearts INV+
3 = Transfer to 3NT
3 = Short in spades
3NT = "fast" 3NT
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