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what should this last double mean?

Poll: what should this last double mean? (25 member(s) have cast votes)

What should this double mean?

  1. penalty (11 votes [44.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 44.00%

  2. heart+club (4 votes [16.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 16.00%

  3. do something intelligent (8 votes [32.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 32.00%

  4. other, explained below (2 votes [8.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 8.00%

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#1 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2016-February-28, 11:14


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#2 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2016-February-28, 11:34

responsive. something like 3424.
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#3 User is offline   robert2734 

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Posted 2016-February-28, 19:59

Partner's hand didn't change. The second double shows what the first double shows and a king better than minimum.
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#4 User is offline   SteveMoe 

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Posted 2016-February-28, 21:19

If the first double is penalty, then so is the second. If it is responsive, then the second suggests greater strength. Classical is penalty, modern is responsive.
Be the partner you want to play with.
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#5 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2016-February-29, 02:44

You just exposed a (semi-)psych.

X here denies a 5th heart (you would bid them at the appropriate level based on your strength), and probably 4 spades as well as you could bid them now or even at your 1st turn.

With 5C and 4H, you probably wouldn't find too much difficulty in bidding them at the 3 level (or cue bid if your hand can make game).

So after eliminating all the natural bids, X remains for some kind of 8-10 or bad 11 hcp, most likely 3424 like wank said.
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#6 User is offline   PhilG007 

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Posted 2016-February-29, 02:45

View PostStephen Tu, on 2016-February-28, 11:14, said:



It depends on partnership agreement. In a casual pairing,I would be inclined to view
the second double by North as penalty orientated since partner has already bid. I've never really
liked responsive doubles. I found them to be a two edged sword.
"It is not enough to be a good player, you must also play well"
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Bridge is a game where you have two opponents...and often three(!)


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by how he handles the two's and three's" - Mollo's Hideous Hog
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#7 User is offline   nekthen 

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Posted 2016-February-29, 03:56

I! would imagine my first double would show less than 4 cards in each black suit and 8+ hcp
I do not see the point of a responsive double in this situation
The second dbl is then clearly penalty. I think -1 is better than our part score or -3 is better than game. I probably have 4/5 diamonds and 3/4 hearts
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#8 User is offline   daffydoc 

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Posted 2016-February-29, 05:38

my first db showed 4H and enough to likely beat 1Hx - the second dbl continues the theme that it is our hand - NOT penalty - unless somehow partner has a hand that can convert. daffydoc
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#9 User is offline   MRTRUB44 

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Posted 2016-February-29, 05:44

According to the convention I was first taught, the first double would mean you had hearts - a double after partner's first bid followed by an opponent bid meant that the opponent had bid what you would have bid if he passed. The meaning of double in this sort of situation is very much partnership agreement.
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#10 User is offline   zillahandp 

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Posted 2016-February-29, 10:30

For christ' sake bid.
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#11 User is offline   lycier 

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Posted 2016-March-01, 03:21

View PostStephen Tu, on 2016-February-28, 11:14, said:




Good topic, but too difficulty to everyone, would you tell the standard answer to us?
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#12 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2016-March-01, 10:11

View Postlycier, on 2016-March-01, 03:21, said:

Good topic, but too difficulty to everyone, would you tell the standard answer to us?


If I already knew the standard answer, I wouldn't have asked the question in the first place. The poll was to determine if there is a standard, apparently there is not.
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#13 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2016-March-01, 14:44

Probably penalty. Opps are running and we are in a forcing pass. But it depends on your meta agreements in this instance.
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#14 User is offline   Siegmund 

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Posted 2016-March-01, 23:09

I think it's a lot more likely to be 3442/2443, than 3424. Partner made a TOX of diamonds, opener failed to rebid his suit. They aren't likely to have 10 diamonds on this auction (and if they do have, 2S or 3C is never going to buy the contract.)

I wouldnt quite say it PROMISES a diamond stack, but certainly sounds like a hand that would have bid notrump if we weren't already at 2D.
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#15 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2016-March-01, 23:43

I guess another way to look at this is if you simply heard the auction before your 2nd x, and then looked at your hand, would it surprise you to see 8 or 9 cards in the red suits?
Hi y'all!

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#16 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2016-March-02, 07:51

i wouldn't categorise it as 'running'.

lho bid his 4 card suit and all we did was show more hearts than them. he's almost never going to pass there.
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#17 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2016-March-02, 15:06

It says you want to take action but you don't have anything to bid. In terms of shape, that means you don't have four spades, five hearts, or five clubs.

The more diamonds you have, the more strength you need to justify your action. With 3=4=2=4 or 3=4=3=3, you're happy to hear partner bid anything, so you don't need much extra strength. With 3=4=4=2 you need considerable extra strength, because partner might bid 3.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#18 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2016-March-02, 15:51

View Postgnasher, on 2016-March-02, 15:06, said:

It says you want to take action but you don't have anything to bid. In terms of shape, that means you don't have four spades, five hearts, or five clubs.

With 1=4=3=5 or 2=4=2=5, are you always bidding 2 instead of the first round double, or are you saying to double then bid 3?
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#19 User is offline   lycier 

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Posted 2016-March-03, 02:42

View PostStephen Tu, on 2016-February-28, 11:14, said:




After some serious thought, I totally disagree with penalty, I think this squence is consistent with the sequence 1 - (S-X) - 2 - (N-X), in fact the last double is a sort of varaint responsive double ! And it should tell the informations to us at below :
1- Whatever west responding 1 is a psyche or a 4-card , please ignore 1.
2- North has some strength/ good shapes enough to make this responsive double.
3- North has 4-4 majors for sure, encourage south to pick up a major.
4- Generally speaking, north usually has a invitational hand, especially majors game.
This double is responsive double, we shouldn't change its original meanings because of 1 interference.
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#20 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2016-March-03, 03:49

View Postlycier, on 2016-March-03, 02:42, said:

After some serious thought, I totally disagree with penalty,

It is actually what SteveM said right at the top. You are right that responsive makes more sense but under classical rules it is penalty. In earlier times pairs tended to have simpler rules for doubles and generally more penalty doubles available. Things have developed somewhat since those times but a lot of these decisions tend to depend on how old/traditional your partner is if playing pick-up bridge. You can pretty much just read #4 and #17 in this thread and ignore the rest and you will have everything you need.
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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