[Phil]

1S 1N
3C* 3D**
3H*** 3S
4D?

* multiple strong hands
** asking without a fit
*** 5-6 spades, exactly 4H

What's 4D?

[mike777]

fwiw I would take 3s as setting trumps and stronger than 4s.
I take 4d as a cuebid in support of spades as trump and also denying a club cuebid.


What kind of hand does 3d show on this auction, can you describe further please?

[quiddity]

Definitely patterning.

[ggwhiz]

mike777, on 2016-February-19, 15:22, said:

fwiw I would take 3s as setting trumps and stronger than 4s.

I disagree, more likely 2 spades and trolling for a 3nt bid "3D asking without a fit" in the OP.

That just makes the 4♦ bid patterning out OR an advanced cue (or both) with solid/longer spades and I don't think it's my business. Depending on my hand I have a cue bid or a 4♠ bid and partner will clarify.

Might be a system hole depending on what other options were available over 3♦.

[ggwhiz]

Duplicate, oops

[Jinksy]

Responder's hand seems consistent with a minimum response and preference showing? Having GFed, it's hard to imagine opener having sufficient extra strength to go slam hunting and a self-supporting spade suit when he couldn't open 2♣. So I'd expect 5440.

[gszes]

Logically speaking it must be patterning (jinksy). The main reason for this conclusion is that opener did not bid 3h (over 1n) but chose the 3c artificial message because they had more to say than a mere 3h. The only rational conclusion is they wished to be able to pattern out to not only increase the probability of getting the right strain but level. What partner does NOT bid is just as important as what partner bids. If 3h was unavailable please ignore this opinion ))))))))

[Phil]

This came up in bidding practice - actually Challenge The Champs for this month.

Partner had AKQJx Qxxx AQxx ----
I had xx AK KTxxx xxxx

Played our diamond grand in 4S when I thought he was denying a club control

[Phil]

gszes, on 2016-February-20, 09:13, said:

Logically speaking it must be patterning (jinksy). The main reason for this conclusion is that opener did not bid 3h (over 1n) but chose the 3c artificial message because they had more to say than a mere 3h. The only rational conclusion is they wished to be able to pattern out to not only increase the probability of getting the right strain but level. What partner does NOT bid is just as important as what partner bids. If 3h was unavailable please ignore this opinion ))))))))

I think you're reading too much into the bidding. Partner would opt to use 3C to show 5422 6421 5431 etc..

[kenberg]

My first thought was along these lines: You guys are the ones with the system that allows 3C on a club void. If you don't know what the follow up bids mean, I sure don't!

But I have other, possibly more useful, thoughts.

This general problem appears in various forms. here you have bid 3S. Partner knows you do not have three, but he might have six. He has a big hand. So. If he has six spades he wants to cue, if he has five he might want to look for a fit elsewhere. These things happen.

How about: After 3S-4D a 4H bid shows a diamond raise in case that is of interest. in case that is of interest. You give up on using 4H as a cue, but there is precedent for that. Last Train is usually in different circumstances, you have a known fit and you want to suggest interest w/o immediately going beyond the 4 level. But it could be useful here with this different meaning. If partner bids 4S over 4H you take it as showing that the 4D was a cue and did indeed deny a club cue. If he does anything else, you are off to the races in diamonds.

I can see the use of 3C as a general gf and the 3D as a general ask w/o a fit, but then it does seem some further work is needed to sort things out.

As it stands, I don't see ho anyone can be sure how 4D was intended. I like the idea of natural since no fit has yet been firmly established, I always lean toward natural interpretations, currently I play a lot of pick up on bbo, but 3C on a void seems to pull us away from natural. So I dunno.