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Hesitation Slow double

#1 User is offline   russ946 

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Posted 2016-January-20, 08:06

N
AK873
-
AT943
AK2

S
T96
-
Q76
QJT9874

Bidding
N 1S, E 2H, S 4S, W 5H
N x, E P, S 5S, W x
p- p-p

N/S non vul, E/W Vul

North hesitated for some time before doubling.
Director and Appeals Committee ruled that South gained info of North dithering whether to go on to 5S or dbl. (he could've passed as well) Ruling was a change with E in 5Hx -1. At the table 5Sx made plus 1

Your views appreciated. Because it would mean that any slow bid would silence partner.


This post has been edited by blackshoe: 2016-January-20, 08:54
Reason for edit: Added bidding diagram

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#2 User is offline   russ946 

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Posted 2016-January-20, 08:10

Sorry correction to North hand, he held KQxxx
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#3 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2016-January-20, 08:56

Question: did West bid in tempo (meaning with a ten second pause) after south's jump to 4, or did he bid "in tempo" (meaning within 2 or 3 seconds of south's jump)?
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I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
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#4 User is offline   russ946 

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Posted 2016-January-20, 10:20

West did bid reasonably quickly maybe 8-10secs
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#5 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2016-January-20, 10:33

View Postruss946, on 2016-January-20, 10:20, said:

West did bid reasonably quickly maybe 8-10secs


I think that 8-10 seconds is enough. Otherwise North gets the rest of the "thinking time". This is why I usually leave the Stop card out if LHO calls before it has been put away.

A slow double always suggests pulling. Is Pass a LA for South? The answer to this is not obvious to me. The long topless clubs do suggest that if any of partner's potential tricks are in that suit, they may not be cashing. On the other hand, one may well cash, and partner could easily have 3 aces or two and a trump trick or the like. So I think that Pass is probably a LA, but a good argument could convince me otherwise.

PS the countries that mandate a hesitation before all 3- level and above calls in a competitive auction have the right idea.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#6 User is offline   russ946 

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Posted 2016-January-20, 11:30

Vampyrr
Then would you think South's raise to 5S is against the proprietaries, ie unethical? Bear in mind the vulnerabilities. If so then delays in bidding at such high levels are also questionable. It seems a very gray area.
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#7 User is online   pran 

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Posted 2016-January-20, 11:59

View PostVampyr, on 2016-January-20, 10:33, said:

PS the countries that mandate a hesitation before all 3- level and above calls in a competitive auction have the right idea.

Thanks !
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#8 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2016-January-20, 16:37

View Postruss946, on 2016-January-20, 11:30, said:

Vampyrr
Then would you think South's raise to 5S is against the proprietaries, ie unethical? Bear in mind the vulnerabilities. If so then delays in bidding at such high levels are also questionable. It seems a very gray area.


I think that the pull to 5 is illegal, because I think that Pass is a LA. Is there a grey area? Well, some might say that a slow double doesn't necessarily suggest pulling, because partner may have been thinking of passing. But either way, partner is not sure that 5X is the best contract.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#9 User is offline   russ946 

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Posted 2016-January-20, 18:32

View PostVampyr, on 2016-January-20, 16:37, said:

I think that the pull to 5 is illegal, because I think that Pass is a LA. Is there a grey area? Well, some might say that a slow double doesn't necessarily suggest pulling, because partner may have been thinking of passing. But either way, partner is not sure that 5X is the best contract.


The TD White Book 8.16.2 says
8.16.2 What does a hesitation mean?
The L&EC considers that:
(a) A hesitation followed by a pass would normally be willing to hear partner bid on
(b) A hesitation followed by a minimum bid after RHO’s pass would normally have something in hand
© A hesitation followed by a penalty double is normally willing to see it removed
However, in cases such as
1 (pass) 3 [slow],
the 3 bidder might be considering a number of actions, i.e. the pause could have suggested either a 2½ or a 3½ bid.

I think I might just call TDs more often on this. It seems any pause for thought is passing info.
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#10 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2016-January-20, 18:42

South knows from the BIT that North has a choice of calls and this strongly suggests bidding on. If North had two trump tricks and a defensive hand, he would no doubt have doubled more quickly. I agree with the adjustment to 5Hx-1.
I prefer to give the lawmakers credit for stating things for a reason. - barmar
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#11 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2016-January-20, 19:53

View Postruss946, on 2016-January-20, 18:32, said:

I think I might just call TDs more often on this. It seems any pause for thought is passing info.


You don't actually need to call the TD if the opponents agree that a break in tempo occurred. Then at the end of the hand you can call the TD if you think you might have been damaged. Players often make their own judgements about whether the partner of the tempo-breaker had any LAs, but you can let the director poll and decide.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#12 User is offline   sanst 

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Posted 2016-January-21, 02:55

I'm inclined to rule that pass is a LA, but I would certainly organize a poll if possible. S has no way of knowing whether the "topless clubs" (never thought of QJT9874 in that way, but I've probably a dirty mind) are worth anything, which makes passing more logical than raising.
If the poll shows passing to be a majority choice, I would lecture S about the use of UI.
Joost
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#13 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2016-January-22, 15:26

Would:
break in tempo before hitting 5? Would
? Would South pull either of those? If not, then you don't get to pull this one after partner says he doesn't have either of those two hands.

I would agree it's poll time, but I think I would have trouble finding anyone that doesn't gripe about 4. It's not a bad call, frankly; I just don't know how many people I could find who would make it.

It's not "any slow bid would silence partner", it's not even "you can't bid after a slow double", it's "you have to have a call that 'everybody' would make after a happy fast bid, if there's a losing (and not suggested) alternative." It took me 25 seconds on Wednesday to open 2. Sure I've told everyone, including the next table over, that I have an unusual/borderline/troublesome big hand. And yes, that could have - later - put partner into some problems. But he didn't pass, and no director is going to force him to (and no player will reasonably expect him to!)
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#14 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2016-January-23, 05:54

View Postmycroft, on 2016-January-22, 15:26, said:

I would agree it's poll time, but I think I would have trouble finding anyone that doesn't gripe about 4. It's not a bad call, frankly; I just don't know how many people I could find who would make it.


You can just make it one of those "while you were out having a fag, the bartender was called upon to start the board".
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#15 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2016-January-23, 07:47

View PostVampyr, on 2016-January-23, 05:54, said:

You can just make it one of those "while you were out having a fag,

You really have lost your American background, Stefanie!
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
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#16 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2016-January-23, 08:29

View Postgordontd, on 2016-January-23, 07:47, said:

You really have lost your American background, Stefanie!


LOL you're right, maybe I should change it, but it is too late now that you have quoted me!
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#17 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2016-January-23, 13:42

Hey, what players do when not at the table is nobody's business but their own. B-)
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As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
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