[Phil]

keithhus, on 2016-January-31, 17:09, said:

I was a little worried when you mentioned "rules" and " deviation" but thanks for clarification.

Nice bid. Glad you fixed this pair.

[mikestar13]

Back in the days, I directed at a non-sanctioned club which banned psychics (as well as sanctioned clubs who did not--I badly needed the money). They defined a psychic as deviating more than two HCP from the disclosed strength or more than one card from the disclosed suit length. (Special tighter restrictions applied to 1NT openings but not overcalls). These rules were extremely distasteful to me, but were at least clear. Penalties were severe: 1st offense was worse of Ave- or table score, 2nd offense in same session was automatic zero, 3rd offense was disqualified and placed last. Second offenses could be punished as third offenses if adjudged egregious (which I never did, but other directors in this club did).


***Kiethhus' bid would not be a psychic at this club.***

(Emphasis added to focus on the point of the story.)

[billw55]

mikestar13, on 2016-February-01, 18:56, said:

Back in the days, I directed at a non-sanctioned club which banned psychics (as well as sanctioned clubs who did not--I badly needed the money). They defined a psychic as deviating more than two HCP from the disclosed strength or more than one card from the disclosed suit length. (Special tighter restrictions applied to 1NT openings but not overcalls). These rules were extremely distasteful to me, but were at least clear. Penalties were severe: 1st offense was worse of Ave- or table score, 2nd offense in same session was automatic zero, 3rd offense was disqualified and placed last. Second offenses could be punished as third offenses if adjudged egregious (which I never did, but other directors in this club did). Kiethhs' bid would not be a psychic at this club.

Wait, so people played in this event and still psyched? For the laughs?

[Fluffy]

More likely they just missbid

[mikestar13]

billw55, on 2016-February-01, 21:37, said:

Wait, so people played in this event and still psyched? For the laughs?

This game was at a senior center--the penalties tended to fall on young whippersnappers (40 year olds and younger) who were new to the game and had been told that "psychics are illegal in this club" but not the detailed rules of what a psychic was. I found out the rule the hard way as a player (invited guest of a regular) in the days before I was directing. I had just gotten my director's card and was hired a few months later to replace a director who had died (same one who had penalized me). I couldn't get the club's governing board to rescind the rule, but I did announce it in detail before the games I directed. And yes, an occasional player violated even then (first offenses only)--some misbids, some for laughs, more than a few as protests.

[helene_t]

mikestar13, on 2016-February-03, 17:17, said:

And yes, an occasional player violated even then (first offenses only)--some misbids, some for laughs, more than a few as protests.

Or maybe just judgement? GIB sometimes makes 4-card overcalls even if it is explained as 5, and rightly so.

[campboy]

helene_t, on 2016-February-04, 03:29, said:

Or maybe just judgement? GIB sometimes makes 4-card overcalls even if it is explained as 5, and rightly so.

But that wouldn't be a psyche by their definition (quite a reasonable one IMO, although I would also add showing a control you don't have). Psyching would be a 3-card overcall.

[mycroft]

The problem is that things like:

• a 3♣ opener on xx xxx xxx KQTxx white on red (even if it was systemic and not a "psych")
• 2♠-2NT "psychic Ogust" (even if it is systemic for this partnership, and not a "psych") - or "psychic Blackwood"
• 1NT "15-17" on Ax Ax T9x KQT986 (which would probably be called a psychic for two reasons)
• potentially even 1♣ on xx Kxx Axx AKJ85 "because that's a 1NT opener, you're playing 15-17" (probably not, because it was the "ancient" players that wanted this rule, and for them it *isn't* a 1NT opener with the open doubleton major)

become "psychics".

Again, my problem with "no psych" games is that I make a lot of systemic bids that the room won't, and therefore, it's a psych. Especially if I'm playing one of my weird systems.

One question: 1♦ Precision-1♥. If I *disclose* it as "usually 5+, but could be as low as zero with the right hand", is the partner won't hang me "psych" on xx xxxxx xx xxxx a problem? Ah, this is a non-sanctioned club with a "no psychs" rule. They'd just throw me out for playing Precision.

[billw55]

mycroft, on 2016-February-04, 11:54, said:

The problem is that things like:

• 2♠-2NT "psychic Ogust" (even if it is systemic for this partnership, and not a "psych") - or "psychic Blackwood"

become "psychics".

Well it depends. If Ogust doesn't show anything (only asks), how can it be a psyche? Same for blackwood.

[mikestar13]

mycroft, on 2016-February-04, 11:54, said:

The problem is that things like:

• a 3♣ opener on xx xxx xxx KQTxx white on red (even if it was systemic and not a "psych")
• 2♠-2NT "psychic Ogust" (even if it is systemic for this partnership, and not a "psych") - or "psychic Blackwood"
• 1NT "15-17" on Ax Ax T9x KQT986 (which would probably be called a psychic for two reasons)
• potentially even 1♣ on xx Kxx Axx AKJ85 "because that's a 1NT opener, you're playing 15-17" (probably not, because it was the "ancient" players that wanted this rule, and for them it *isn't* a 1NT opener with the open doubleton major)

become "psychics".

Again, my problem with "no psych" games is that I make a lot of systemic bids that the room won't, and therefore, it's a psych. Especially if I'm playing one of my weird systems.

One question: 1♦ Precision-1♥. If I *disclose* it as "usually 5+, but could be as low as zero with the right hand", is the partner won't hang me "psych" on xx xxxxx xx xxxx a problem? Ah, this is a non-sanctioned club with a "no psychs" rule. They'd just throw me out for playing Precision.

You got that right. I say again--I detested the rules at this club and worked tirelessly to get them repealed, without success. And I was too broke to quit in protest--I'm just a bit addicted to getting my next meal. I think those rules would have to become less offensive to be merely obscene. And OP's bid is not a psychic under those idiotic rules, so how can anyone allege it was a psychic under any rules, as if that were somehow a crime against nature anyway?

[1eyedjack]

billw55, on 2016-February-04, 12:46, said:

Well it depends. If Ogust doesn't show anything (only asks), how can it be a psyche? Same for blackwood.

In most cases (not limited to Ogust) when a player says that a bid "only" asks, he is falling short of full disclosure. In nearly all cases the reality is that he would only ask when holding a limited number of hand types, and the opponents are entitled to know those limitations.

Another example is those who lead "Ace for attitude, King for count"; they seem to think that this is adequate disclosure because whether you have a hand suitable for asking for attitude v count is purely a matter of bridge skill rather than agreement. I disagree. Which signal is preferred is a function of dummy, which is not known to either defender at the point of choosing the lead, so they will generally make assumptions based on agreement.

Returning to Ogust, the most common application is that it promises at least a game try, and opener is forced to game with a maximum. If you have a controlled way of stopping in 3M regardless of opener's rebid over Ogust, such that opener is forced to respect any signout, then that should be disclosed, in addition to explaining that it "doesn't show anything". By which point its effectiveness as a ruse to steal the pot is of course confetti.

If, however, by agreement, express or implied, its deployment shows game interest, and you use it on a weak hand, then I would call that a psych, much like cue bidding a wide open suit to inhibit a lead, or responding 3N to a pre-empt with a load of dross.

[mycroft]

Late, sorry, I was away.

On "psychic Ogust", et al: it's *not* a psychic. But that doesn't matter, and that's the problem.

In "no-psyches" games, it's not whether the disclosure is correct, the system is followed, or anything else - if *someone* doesn't like it, and wouldn't do it themselves, it's a psych - and the more important they are in the club, the more it's a psych. Especially if it's a weak bid that is normally strong, or a weak bid that is normally not quite *that* weak. They don't want to play against this stuff, that's why they play in a "no-psyches" club. They're indignant when it happens, and doubly so if the TD rules it not a psych. If you're the visitor, just doing your normal thing, what is the TD going to do? Investigate fully, find out that the ruling is in your favour, and have the regular fume and gossip and complain - and potentially not come back (at least to *your* games)? Or "follow the club policy", rule it a psych, and piss off the visitor (who isn't coming back anyway)?

Oh, and suppose ♠T8653 ♥86 ♦AQT ♣K75 is ruled "not a psych" unfavourable 2♠ opener (because this pair is playing EHAA, and it's *not* opening this 2♠ that would be the psychic). But when the aggrieved opponent, on the next round, opens 1♠ on ♠AJT8543 ♥- ♦QJT854 ♣- and it's ruled a psychic because "it's an 8-count and you're playing normal openers", oh man is the fan going to need a cleaning.

In our "invitational" games at my old club, we used to restrict systems - you were expected to play some sort of standard/2-over-1 system, and not to be playing crazy continuations (like Keri, perhaps, or relay responses to J2N or spiral scan or...) Especially if you played well ahead of your masterpoint count. For some reason that to this day I don't understand, they didn't have a problem with a 12-14 NT (which skews the rest of the system at least as much as a Precision Club does, and is possibly even harder to explain to the sheltered crew). That I don't mind. If you want to say "yes, your EHAA 3-bid isn't a psychic, but please don't play EHAA at this game", fine (better to have it open beforehand, but the number of TDs that don't know about EHAA, Romex, Polish Club,..., especially in one of these games, is legion). But "no-psych" clubs almost invariably end up meaning "no bids we don't like", not "no psychics".

And Mike - I'm violently agreeing with you, not criticizing your decisions in any way. In case that wasn't clear.

[Cyberyeti]

One with a difference I had, I was in 3rd seat, love all, with my usual 5 small clubs and out 332. While I'm contemplating what to open, LHO who obviously has more points than she's ever seen in her life opens 2♣ out of turn.

You are told that you can bid what you like, LHO can make any bid/call she likes except double and her partner is silenced for the rest of the auction.

Take it from here.

[hrothgar]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-March-01, 16:43, said:

One with a difference I had, I was in 3rd seat, love all, with my usual 5 small clubs and out 332. While I'm contemplating what to open, LHO who obviously has more points than she's ever seen in her life opens 2♣ out of turn.

You are told that you can bid what you like, LHO can make any bid/call she likes except double and her partner is silenced for the rest of the auction.

Take it from here.

5C feels about right

[Zelandakh]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-March-01, 16:43, said:

You are told that you can bid what you like, LHO can make any bid/call she likes except double and her partner is silenced for the rest of the auction.

Take it from here.

I think my first action is to call the TD back and check the ruling to make sure we do not get hit with a "Director error" adjustment.

[Cyberyeti]

Zelandakh, on 2016-March-02, 04:19, said:

I think my first action is to call the TD back and check the ruling to make sure we do not get hit with a "Director error" adjustment.

This was upwards of 20 years ago and was I think right at the time