[euclidz]

I'd appreciate help with the below - what is the correct (EBU Acol) rule in the following incidents?

1. Declarer plays (leads) a card from his hand when it was dummies lead (played out of rotation should have played from dummy).

2. Defender plays a card before LHO plays his card

3. Defender plays a card before his partner and RHO have played their card. (Law 57?)

Note: I am not being lazy, I have read the Laws but I can't find an answer for 1 and 2 seems too lenient (if I have read it right).

[euclidz]

Sorry Title should read EBU not EBY (grrr)

[mgoetze]

euclidz, on 2015-December-26, 05:11, said:

2. Defender plays a card before LHO plays his card

As bridge is played clockwise, playing before your LHO is, generally speaking, correct procedure.

[Cyberyeti]

mgoetze, on 2015-December-26, 05:16, said:

As bridge is played clockwise, playing before your LHO is, generally speaking, correct procedure.

Unless it's LHO's lead, but I guess he meant RHO.

[1eyedjack]

euclidz, on 2015-December-26, 05:12, said:

Sorry Title should read EBU not EBY (grrr)

You can edit the title. Just go to Edit the post, and then switch to "Use Full Editor".

[Vampyr]

euclidz, on 2015-December-26, 05:11, said:

I'd appreciate help with the below - what is the correct (EBU Acol) rule in the following incidents?

1. Declarer plays (leads) a card from his hand when it was dummies lead (played out of rotation should have played from dummy).

2. Defender plays a card before LHO plays his card

3. Defender plays a card before his partner and RHO have played their card. (Law 57?)

Note: I am not being lazy, I have read the Laws but I can't find an answer for 1 and 2 seems too lenient (if I have read it right).

I am being lazy, because I can't be asked to go find my law book but I can tell you the answers.

1. Either defender, without consulting her partner, can accept or reject the lead.

2. The card is a played card. It is rather different if a defender improperly plays before his partner:

3. Yes, looked online and it is L57. Different if the card is a lead -- Lj54D and then L50.

[blackshoe]

euclidz, on 2015-December-26, 05:12, said:

Sorry Title should read EBU not EBY (grrr)

Fixed.

[euclidz]

euclidz, on 2015-December-26, 05:11, said:

1. Declarer plays (leads) a card from his hand when it was dummies lead (played out of rotation should have played from dummy).

Defenders may accept or reject the lead. If they reject it, declarer returns the card and plays from the correct hand and there is no penalty (Law 55)

Is this correct?

[euclidz]

euclidz, on 2015-December-26, 05:11, said:

Defender plays a card before RHO plays his card

Declarer may accept the play out of turn and play continues without penalty or reject the p o o t and then the card becomes major penalty card.

Is this correct?

[euclidz]

euclidz, on 2015-December-26, 05:11, said:

Defender plays a card before his partner and RHO have played their card. (Law 57?)

LAW 57 PLAY OR LEAD (OUT OF ROTATION (before partner has played)
When a defender leads to the next trick before his partner has played to the current trick, or plays out of turn before his partner has played, the card so led or played becomes a major penalty card, and declarer selects one of the following options. He may:
1. require offender’s partner to play the highest card he holds of the suit led, or
2. require offender’s partner to play the lowest card he holds of the suit led, or
3. forbid offender’s partner to play a card of another suit specified by declarer.

Is this correct?

But is the case that if declarer selects one of the options (1 - 3) then card is replaced and is no longer a mpc?

[Vampyr]

euclidz, on 2015-December-26, 09:51, said:

Defenders may accept or reject the lead. If they reject it, declarer returns the card and plays from the correct hand and there is no penalty (Law 55)

Is this correct?

Yes

euclidz, on 2015-December-26, 09:55, said:

Declarer may accept the play out of turn and play continues without penalty or reject the p o o t and then the card becomes major penalty card.

Is this correct?

No, if the card is a legal card it is played. Everyone else must play in their proper turn. You are correct if the card is a lead to a trick.

euclidz, on 2015-December-26, 09:57, said:

LAW 57 PLAY OR LEAD (OUT OF ROTATION (before partner has played)
When a defender leads to the next trick before his partner has played to the current trick, or plays out of turn before his partner has played, the card so led or played becomes a major penalty card, and declarer selects one of the following options. He may:
1. require offender’s partner to play the highest card he holds of the suit led, or
2. require offender’s partner to play the lowest card he holds of the suit led, or
3. forbid offender’s partner to play a card of another suit specified by declarer.

Is this correct?

But is the case that if declarer selects one of the options (1 - 3) then card is replaced and is no longer a mpc?

i believe that the law is trying to say that the card becomes a Mpc if it is led and the other options apply when the trick is already in progress. It is not very clear. In the latter case the card may not be picked up.

[gordontd]

Vampyr, on 2015-December-26, 08:17, said:

I am being lazy, because I can't be asked to go find my law book

Polite spell-checker.

[blackshoe]

Example 1: South is declarer. He leads a club. East plays ♣A out of turn. ♣A becomes a major penalty card, and declarer may 1) require West to play his highest club, 2) require West to play his lowest club, 3) forbid West from playing one of a spade, a heart or a diamond. If West can't comply, he can play any card. Note that there is nothing in this law about East picking up the ♣A and putting it back in his hand — that card is played, willy-nilly.

Example 2: South, declarer, leads a diamond. West plays ♦A. Whether South plays from dummy or not, West then leads a club before East plays to the current trick. Same rectification as above. Law 57 doesn't say so, but I expect East (and North) should play to the trick in progress before rectification for the LOOT.

[euclidz]

blackshoe, on 2015-December-26, 23:15, said:

Example 2: South, declarer, leads a diamond. West plays ♦A. Whether South plays from dummy or not, West then leads a club before East plays to the current trick. Same rectification as above. Law 57 doesn't say so, but I expect East (and North) should play to the trick in progress before rectification for the LOOT.

My problem is that Law 57 unambiguously speaks about offender playing a card before his partners has played a card i.e. not after partner has played his cards and before RHO has played his card!

[euclidz]

Defender plays a card before RHO plays his card.

This is now driving me nuts. I have been reading the book now for most of the holidays and read and re-read Laws 53 to 57 so many times it's hurting my eyes.

What seems to be a simple and common occurrence seems not to have a clear answer in the book. One of the problems is that, in the book, the word 'lead' is used ambiguously i.e. does lead mean play or does lead mean first to play. By the bye, I've got the red book, yellow book and blue book and I can't find the answer to this question.

Lets say East is declarer and West is Dummy.
Dummy plays 2♠
North plays 5♠
East pauses for thought
South plays 9♠ (before East has played)

Surely someone knows the ruling and what's the LAW number?

[gordontd]

euclidz, on 2015-December-27, 08:38, said:

Defender plays a card before RHO plays his card.

This now driving me nuts. I have been reading this nook now for most of the holidays and read and re-read Laws 53 to 57 so many times it's hurting my eyes.

What seems to be a simple and common occurrence seems not to have a clear answer in the book. One of the problems is that, in the book, the word 'lead' is used ambiguously i.e. does lead mean play or does lead mean first to play. By the bye, I've got the red book and the yellow book and I can't find the answer to this question.

Lets say East is declarer and West is Dummy.
Dummy plays 2♠
North plays 5♠
East pauses for thought
South plays 9♠ (before East has played)

Surely someone knows the ruling and what's the LAW number?

Ignore the yellow book. It's not a lead so Laws 53-56 don't apply and it's not a premature play within the meaning of Law 57 - it's not considered to be playing prematurely as long as it's after his partner, but the card must be played and can't be changed after declarer plays. So declarer can't lose out from this.

[euclidz]

Thanks Gordon for the helpful reply.

In the above example, if East plays the 7♠ it seems reasonable that South should be required to play the 9♠ but what if East plays the J♠ must South then be compelled to play the 9♠ or could he play the Q♠ and if he is allowed the play the Q♠ does the 9♠ become a penalty card / major penalty card?

[pran]

euclidz, on 2015-December-27, 12:34, said:

Thanks Gordon for the helpful reply.

In the above example, if East plays the 7♠ it seems reasonable that South should be required to play the 9♠ but what if East plays the J♠ must South then be compelled to play the 9♠ or could he play the Q♠ and if he is allowed the play the Q♠ does the 9♠ become a penalty card / major penalty card?

If South plays (here the 9♠) prematurely, i.e. before East (Declarer) has played to the trick then South is bound by his play regardless of which card East eventually decides to play to the trick.

The 9♠ actually becomes a major penalty card (subject to TD ruling) immediately when South exposes it.

[euclidz]

pran, on 2015-December-27, 14:34, said:

If South plays (here the 9♠) prematurely, i.e. before East (Declarer) has played to the trick then South is bound by his play regardless of which card East eventually decides to play to the trick.

The 9♠ actually becomes a major penalty card (subject to TD ruling) immediately when South exposes it.

Thanks . . . . So it follows then that if the 9♠ becomes a mpc it must be played at the first opportunity and if East (declarer) plays the J♠ South (offender) most play the 9♠

I'm happy with that - thanks

[barmar]

euclidz, on 2015-December-27, 08:38, said:

What seems to be a simple and common occurrence seems not to have a clear answer in the book. One of the problems is that, in the book, the word 'lead' is used ambiguously i.e. does lead mean play or does lead mean first to play. By the bye, I've got the red book, yellow book and blue book and I can't find the answer to this question.

In general, a play is only a lead if it's the first card played to a trick. The card led is the one whose suit everyone else has to follow if they can.

There's one place where judgement may have to be used to determine if a card is a play or lead: 45E Fifth Card Played to Trick. The law says "unless the Director deems that it was led", so you have to determine whether that card is the fifth in the current trick or the lead to the next trick. The Law doesn't say how the TD determines this, maybe there's some guidance in one of the colored books. I'd probably just ask the player -- "Did you think you won the trick and were leading to the next?"

I think there are also some laws where it says to apply the rectification in some other law. The first law may be about a play, the second about a lead; when you go to the second law, you can ignore the fact that it's only about leads because you're really following the instruction from the first law.