[mikestar]

What is your prefered method for 1C-1H-1S and 1C-1H-1N?

Does 1S show an unbalanced hand so 1N might have 4 spades?

Do you bid 1S whenever you have 4 spades so 1N denies spades?

Does it make a difference if you are 4333 or 4432?

Do you play one way when playing a weak NT and another playing strong?

[Rebound]

I believe there are many who would bid 1NT holding a 4-card spade suit, some conventionally, but I don't like it. Here the KISS priniciple applies for me. So, yes, 1NT denies 4 spades.

[MickyB]

Playing weak NT, you have to rebid 1NT on balanced hands without major suit support to get across the extra strength. Playing strong NT, this reason doesn't apply - it is clear to rebid 1NT on 4333 IMO, but it is playable to bid 1♠ or 1NT on 4(23)4s.

[inquiry]

The logic here is that if 1♠ promises unbalanced, it will simply further bidding on the "big hands"... At imps, it is the big hands that count.

So on an auction like
1C-1H-? ,,, ,if you play strong 1NT (I play 14-16), a 1NT rebid shows 11-13. Now partner is well placed to know how high to go. And I can differentiate later between this range if invited. So if the hand belongs in a part score, we may have just missed 2C or 2S, but we did not get overboard. IF we are in the wrong contract, at least 1NT is playable and partner is willing to rebid a five card heart suit so might get into the right contract after all...

Likewise if I play weak NT, this shows the strong 1NT opening bid hand. If partner is weak, we are in 1NT like the rest of the field who opened 1NT, and checkback can pick up the four card spade suit or three card heart support.

A second win with 1♠ promise unbalanced hand, it prevents the silly 2C contract when responder looking at Qxx KJxxx xx Qxx pulls 1S to 2C and we play in a 3-3 fit if I am 4-3-3-3 with a 5-3 heart fit available, or we play in 2S in 4-3 with 5-3 available, and we avoid 1NT when that is right. And when I DO BID 1S, partner can count on me to have five plus clubs. If I was 4-3-2-4, I would tend to raise hearts if I felt I could nto rebid 1NT. This way, we never get to 3-3 or even 4-3 minor fit. And partner never feels the urge to rebid a ratty five card heart suit over my 1S bid (unlike the strong urge to do so over some 1NT rebids).

Of course, I can not get out in 2C, and this influences my decision to bid 1S only with unbalanced hands. If my partner wants to play clubs, we must play 3C (2C is xyz). So the simple preference to 2C is not an option. Thus I REALLY want to unbalanced to bid 1S since doing so forces me to 2H or higher if my partner doesn't rebid 1NT (my 1S is 100% force). Experience has shown with xyz, this 1S rebid REALLY, REALLY has to be unbalanced. And in my opinion, even without xzy, it should be unbalanced at imps. Matchpoints where finding the 4-4 spade fit to play exactly 2S instead of 1NT then bidding it on balanced hands makes more sense. My bidding is styled for imps.

Ben

[whereagles]

I bypass if I need to hog the hand... lol. Otherwise I bypass as well. LOL.

[awm]

I've found that raising partner's major on three, even holding 4333 shape, is often right. Usually this is a win when partner has five hearts and a weak hand, and it is also right fairly frequently when we play a 4-3 fit (some neat dummy reversal lines for 2h for a matchpoint top). So normally my priorities are:

(1) Bid 2h, even on 3 hearts, even on 4333 unless values are very "notrumpy"
(2) Bid 1s -- basically guarantees 4-4 in the blacks, 4234 possible, no 3 hearts unless extras
(3) Bid 1nt -- occasionally do this on 4333 if hand is not oriented towards playing in a suit

Holding 4324 I will essentially always raise the hearts. Occasionally play 4-3 heart fit instead of 4-4 spade fit (but only at the two level when pd is weak). Hearts normally play better than notrump on these hands, and bidding 1s followed by 2h over partner's 2c/1nt shows extras.

[hrothgar]

MickyB, on Mar 31 2005, 08:13 PM, said:

Playing weak NT, you have to rebid 1NT on balanced hands without major suit support to get across the extra strength. Playing strong NT, this reason doesn't apply - it is clear to rebid 1NT on 4333 IMO, but it is playable to bid 1♠ or 1NT on 4(23)4s.

Sorry, this makes little/no sense to me.

Regardless of the range of your NT, a 1NT rebid should show a balanced hand, while deny appropriate strength for a 1NT opening or sufficient strength for a 2NT rebid. I don't see why this logical should change because you happening to be playing a 12-14 or a 15-17 NT...

Care to elaborate your reasoning?

[hrothgar]

mikestar, on Mar 31 2005, 07:50 PM, said:

What is your prefered method for 1C-1H-1S and 1C-1H-1N?

Does 1S show an unbalanced hand so 1N might have 4 spades?

Do you bid 1S whenever you have 4 spades so 1N denies spades?

Does it make a difference if you are 4333 or 4432?

Do you play one way when playing a weak NT and another playing strong?

Rebidding 1♠ categorically denies a balanced hand
A 1NT rebid may or may not hold a 4 card spade suit

[Fluffy]

Althou I don't bypass a 4 card ♠ suit ever, I have voter for other since I play transfer responses to 1♣m so

1♣-1♦(♥)
1♠ may be balanced, but with 2♥ at most while
1NT shows a 3235.

On any other partnership, or after a 1♦ opening, I would never bypass a 4 card ♠ suit, if I had ever to do it I would only do with a 4324 since its the only way to end in 2♥ if partner has 5 and balanced.

Cheers.

[mike777]

mikestar, on Mar 31 2005, 11:50 AM, said:

What is your prefered method for 1C-1H-1S and 1C-1H-1N?

Does 1S show an unbalanced hand so 1N might have 4 spades?

Do you bid 1S whenever you have 4 spades so 1N denies spades?

Does it make a difference if you are 4333 or 4432?

Do you play one way when playing a weak NT and another playing strong?

If we bypass 4 card spade suit:
1) Are we always raising with 3 card H support?
1b) If not, after invite checkback, do we show 3 card H or 4 spades?
1c) If not, after invite checkback are we in danger of losing one fit or the other?

My concern here is how do we handle all of our invite checkback sequences now if we have to worry about 3h and 4spades?
Are we ending up with less clear nt invite sequences?
Are we ending up at 3 level in major, where others are playing only at 2 level?

[Free]

I prefer bypassing, but many don't. The frequency of you having balanced with 4♠ and your partner at least 4-4 in the Majors AND less than invitational isn't that big. From the moment he has an invitational or stronger hand, you still find your fit anyway with the propper tools.
I like the fact that 1♠ shows an unbalanced (usually minimum, but stronger and 3-suited is also possible) hand, as long as it's forcing for 1 round.

[MickyB]

hrothgar, on Mar 31 2005, 07:05 PM, said:

MickyB, on Mar 31 2005, 08:13 PM, said:

Playing weak NT, you have to rebid 1NT on balanced hands without major suit support to get across the extra strength. Playing strong NT, this reason doesn't apply - it is clear to rebid 1NT on 4333 IMO, but it is playable to bid 1♠ or 1NT on 4(23)4s.

Sorry, this makes little/no sense to me.

Regardless of the range of your NT, a 1NT rebid should show a balanced hand, while deny appropriate strength for a 1NT opening or sufficient strength for a 2NT rebid. I don't see why this logical should change because you happening to be playing a 12-14 or a 15-17 NT...

Care to elaborate your reasoning?

I seem to remember Chip Martel implied this in a post on RGB. If you bid two suits on a weak NT, then you can pass most things that pard bids next, satisfied that you aren't missing game. If you bid two suits on a strong NT, then you haven't really got your hand across, and if partner bids something weakish (1NT, 2♣, 2♥) you are still worried about missing game. On the other hand, you are happier after a 2NT rebid from pard if you have 14+ than 12-13. I hadn't considered this 'til just now...

[epeeist]

mikestar, on Mar 31 2005, 11:50 AM, said:

What is your prefered method for 1C-1H-1S and 1C-1H-1N?

Does 1S show an unbalanced hand so 1N might have 4 spades?

Do you bid 1S whenever you have 4 spades so 1N denies spades?

Does it make a difference if you are 4333 or 4432?

Do you play one way when playing a weak NT and another playing strong?

Unlike some other posters, I'm intermediate. With that warning to you out of the way...

With a regular partner, using SAYC or 2/1, I assume 1NT rebid denies 4 spades in the sequence you indicated and shows 12-14 HCP (12 possible if 5332 distribution, otherwise 13-14 HCP). So 1♠ rebid does not necessarily deny a balanced hand.

As others have noted, wanting to "hog" the hand (sometimes for good reasons, e.g. have Kx stopper), or thinking it more important to show strength of hand with NT rebid than distribution with a bad 4-card spade suit, etc. means that sometimes I may bid 1NT even with a 4-card spade suit. But I expect my p to be fooled as well as opps, into thinking I don't have a 4-card spade suit. Also, given the sequence you indicate I'd want a diamond stopper to rebid 1NT. I don't open 2-card club suits (I'd open 1♦ instead with 4432) so that part of your question doesn't apply to me.

As for the choice between showing 4-card ♥ support immediately or bidding 4-card spade suit with 4432, depending on vulnerability and whether IMPs or matchpoints I'd bid the spade suit and hearts later (depending on p's response), assuming I have the sort of minimum 4432 13-14 HCP hand you're discussing (if p passes 1♠ it may not be best contract, but we almost certainly don't have game).

Somewhat related, one of the articles in the most recent (I received it yesterday) copy of the ACBL "Bridge Bulletin" discusses the great divide: between those who open 1NT holding a 5-card major and those who don't...

[luke warm]

for me i'll always bypass 1S with a balanced hand... i think richard's logic is right on... my partner will know, if i bid 1S, that i'm 4xx5 or 4414 or 4144

mike said:

If we bypass 4 card spade suit:
1)  Are we always raising with 3 card H support?
1b) If not, after invite checkback, do we show 3 card H or 4 spades?
1c) If not, after invite checkback are we in danger of losing one fit or the other?

1) no
1b) after 2C invitational 2 way ckback, opener is forced to bid 2D-he doesn't bid hearts *or* spades
1c) no.. after 1C/1H/1NT/2C opener is forced to bid 2D, after which responder bids 2H, showing invitational with 5+, or 2S, showing 4 spades and 5 hearts in an invitational hand, or 3C with invitational with support, or 3D even, always invitational... this last (3D) would typically be a 4/5 red suited hand, 11 hcp or so

mike said:

1) Are we ending up with less clear nt invite sequences?
2) Are we ending up at 3 level in major, where others are playing only at 2 level?

1) i don't believe so, but you'd have to construct a couple of example hands
2) maybe, but only if (usually) responder is 45 in the majors and opener decides 3H is a better spot than 2NT

as for the checkback sequences, maybe we can convince roland to post his very excellent notes on this...

[the hog]

I guess this is a continuation of a previous thread. It is no surprise that I agree with Richard and with Ben in that 1C 1X 1S denies a balanced hand.

Look at the logic behind this - if you open xxxx xxx xxx xxx with 1C and rebid 1S, as one poster said he does, you have taken 2 bids to tell your partner what? I have 4S. Your bidding says nothing about the shape of your hand or your strength. What is poor partner to do with a hand where he would normally give preference to 2C, but now cannot because you may not have a C suit. (eg Qxx KJxxx Tx Qxx).
He bids 1NT I guess, and so you play a silly contract maybe going off when 2C is cold.

Contrast this with: 1C 1x 1NT - again 2 bids but this time you have limited your hand to a particular range, AND you have told partner of the nature of your hand - balanced.

[mike777]

hrothgar, on Mar 31 2005, 02:06 PM, said:

mikestar, on Mar 31 2005, 07:50 PM, said:

What is your prefered method for 1C-1H-1S and 1C-1H-1N?

Does 1S show an unbalanced hand so 1N might have 4 spades?

Do you bid 1S whenever you have 4 spades so 1N denies spades?

Does it make a difference if you are 4333 or 4432?

Do you play one way when playing a weak NT and another playing strong?

Rebidding 1♠ categorically denies a balanced hand
A 1NT rebid may or may not hold a 4 card spade suit

If I understand the 2 negatives of this style are:
1) You may play 1nt when playing in 1s or 2s is better if responder is weak 4-4?
2) You play in 3hearts when many play in 2h when opener is minimum with 3H and 2-3 spades and responder has invite hand with 4s and 5H?

[luke warm]

mike said:

If I understand the 2 negatives of this style are:
1) You may play 1nt when playing in 1s or 2s is better if responder is weak 4-4?
2) You play in 3hearts when many play in 2h when opener is minimum with 3H and 2-3 spades and responder has invite hand with 4s and 5H?

1) only if responder is weak with both majors (4/4+)... he couldn't possibly have 4 spades and 4+ diamonds though

2) if responder is 4/5 in the majors with an invitational hand, he bids 2C... after opener's forced 2D, responder bids 2S, not 2H... this shows a 4/5 hand with invitational strength

ALL invitational hands go thru 2C, ALL game force hands go thru 2D (given a 1NT rebid by opener)

[HeartA]

It depends. If honors are scattered, I will rebid 1NT. If ♠ is a good suit, I will choose 1♠. I don't know which to vote.

[joker_gib]

Rebound, on Mar 31 2005, 12:05 PM, said:

I believe there are many who would bid 1NT holding a 4-card spade suit, some conventionally, but I don't like it. Here the KISS priniciple applies for me. So, yes, 1NT denies 4 spades.

Same for me, but only Vulnerable because NV, I play weak NT so 1m-1♥-1NT is 15-17 and may have 4♠

Alain