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Stayman - answer with both majors

#1 User is offline   lorserker 

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Posted 2015-November-15, 11:11

Hi, I noticed that some world class pairs use a special answer to stayman which shows both majors - 2NT.
Could someone explain the merit of not just responding 2H, and how it outweighs not being able to use stayman on weak hands fishing for a 4-4 fit to improve the part score?
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#2 User is offline   phil_20686 

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Posted 2015-November-15, 11:46

The merit is that 1n-2c-2h-2s can be used to show a slam try with 4 card heart support (and no shortage), or some other meaning, and is not needed to just check that opener is not 4-4. It also prevents the wrong siding of spade contracts when responder is e.g. 4243 and opener has 44(32).
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#3 User is offline   lorserker 

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Posted 2015-November-15, 12:56

Thanks. Is this widely used at pairs too? On vugraph it's always imps :)
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#4 User is offline   lorserker 

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Posted 2015-November-15, 13:04

im not sure i understand the wrongsiding of spades. a natural auction would go: 1N - 2C 2D - 2H - 3N - 4S, and the spades are rightsided.
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#5 User is offline   lorserker 

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Posted 2015-November-15, 13:04

im not sure i understand the wrongsiding of spades. a natural auction would go: 1N - 2C 2D - 2H - 3N - 4S, and the spades are rightsided.
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#6 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2015-November-15, 13:17

Do they really have world class pairs in France? :P
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#7 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2015-November-15, 13:39

The only real damage is when responder was using Garbage Stayman you will be signing off via transfer at 3-level but at least there is a fit.
Same with people who try to sign-off in a major with weak 4-4/5-4 in majors.
But I think 2N showing both majors makes for a cleaner auction and you may be able to relay after a 2H/2S response to see if a 5-card major.
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#8 User is offline   lorserker 

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Posted 2015-November-15, 14:13

@mgoetze lol, where are you from?
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#9 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2015-November-15, 14:49

In the auction
1NT-2
2-3
3

it can be unclear if opener is showing four spades or if he is showing a diamond fit and a concentration of values in spades. But if you play that the 2 bid denied four spades you don't have that problem.
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#10 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2015-November-15, 15:18

 lorserker, on 2015-November-15, 14:13, said:

@mgoetze lol, where are you from?

Maybe if you look closely, you'll see it? Check the left-hand side of the screen....
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#11 User is offline   lorserker 

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Posted 2015-November-15, 16:10

 mgoetze, on 2015-November-15, 15:18, said:

Maybe if you look closely, you'll see it? Check the left-hand side of the screen....


haha, now i see that you are from Koln, Germany, and you are not browsing on a mobile device :P
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#12 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2015-November-15, 16:25

 lorserker, on 2015-November-15, 16:10, said:

haha, now i see that you are from Koln, Germany, and you are not browsing on a mobile device :P

No, it's funny, ProBoards actually seems to be better on mobile than on the desktop but Invision is just worse in every way.

Anyway, some Germans for whatever reason decided it would be a good reason to adopt French methods so the 2NT = both majors answer is not unknown to me, but I know for a fact that we have no world-class pairs here in Germany. :P
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#13 User is offline   lorserker 

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Posted 2015-November-15, 16:49

@mgoetze i remember that i once played in koln at a club run by a polish guy (i think), but probably we haven't met because nobody was 30 :)
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#14 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2015-November-16, 13:43

A modified Stayman.Opener bids 2D which shows minimum of 1NT range and can have one major only.Opener bids 2H with both majors and with 15/ bad16 and bids 2 S with good 16/17 with both majors.The other bids by opener eg 2NT/3CDorS or 3NT show different distributions with a maximum hand..
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#15 User is offline   Kungsgeten 

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Posted 2015-November-16, 17:59

If combined with puppet stayman (where 3C or sometimes 2NT asks for a five card major) the 2NT response allows for a choice of game bid when holding 5-3 in the majors. With a GF hand, bid Stayman and continue with Smolen if opener rebid 2D. If he rebids your 3 card suit, bid 3NT showing 3 card support and 5 cards in the other major.

Another upside is, if using four way transfers (2S transfers to clubs, 2NT transfers to diamonds, invitational hands without a major has to go via 2C), that 1NT-2C; 2H-2S can be invitational with 5 spades, while 2NT in this auction says nothing about spades. This allows for second round transfers by responder after a jacoby transfer, or similar.

If using a 2NT response as 4-4 majors I would recommend bidding 2NT with 4-4 minimum and 3C with 4-4 maximum. Over these responder transfers to the desired major at the 3-level.
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#16 User is offline   daffydoc 

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Posted 2015-November-17, 14:47

I would not care for 2nt to show both majors and would not play it myself - as I have a distinct preference for garbage stayman. To my recollection I have not seen this treatment as yet at the nationals in the USA - perhaps it is more a foreign treatment? Am sure it has merits - but still don't think I would adopt it - particularly if it would mean adding even more to remember on follow-ups to a 2nt response. Particularly for anyone below world class level - learn to defend and play and stop adding conventions. daffydoc
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#17 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2015-November-17, 16:12

 daffydoc, on 2015-November-17, 14:47, said:

perhaps it is more a foreign treatment?

I wonder whether this question might have been answered already.
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#18 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2015-November-17, 17:13

 phil_20686, on 2015-November-15, 11:46, said:

The merit is that 1n-2c-2h-2s can be used to show a slam try with 4 card heart support (and no shortage), or some other meaning, and is not needed to just check that opener is not 4-4. It also prevents the wrong siding of spade contracts when responder is e.g. 4243 and opener has 44(32).

I hope there are better arguments! Slam tries with a fit after 1N-2C-2H aren't really a problem, between 3S, 4C and 4D you have plenty of bids. And right-siding 4-4 fits when one hand has 9 hcp and the other 15-17 isn't exactly high priority either.
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#19 User is offline   PhantomSac 

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Posted 2015-November-18, 00:14

 helene_t, on 2015-November-15, 14:49, said:

In the auction
1NT-2
2-3
3

it can be unclear if opener is showing four spades or if he is showing a diamond fit and a concentration of values in spades. But if you play that the 2 bid denied four spades you don't have that problem.


Kind of off topic but even if opener can still have 4 spades in this auction it is much better to play 4 level= coming in spades and 3S=I like my hand for diamonds. The point being with a known 4-4 spade fit you can afford to go past 3N but a lot of time with a diamond fit you can't.
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#20 User is offline   jfnrl 

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Posted 2015-November-18, 11:11

Playing SEF (and so stayman 4 responses), I think that its main minus are :
No garbage stayman and auction 1NT 2C 2K 2H is underloaded
To much information to opponents if the final contract is 3 or 4H

In my opinion, the main minus of stayman 3 responses is that slam auctions are more complicated.

Playing stayman 4 responses, if the auction begins :
1NT 2C
2H 3D

The responder may look for a stopper in C (plausible contracts are 3NT, 4M -fit 4-3, 5D); he may also show a strong hand with or without fit (plausible contracts 4H, 5D, slam in D/H).
It seems me very complicated if he must keep in mind that the opener may have 4S.
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