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Cheating Allegations

#41 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2015-August-28, 14:26

View Postcherdano, on 2015-August-28, 13:45, said:

Well, according to Lotan Fisher the were "monitored by directors and kibitzers for years. And they found nothing." I would assume that such monitoring was based on receiving complaints.
(http://newinbridge.c...ot-bermuda-bowl )

Also, there were quite a few posts on BW about cheating from top players prior to Brogelands' revelations that sounded like they had been arguing for a while with authorities whether a pair could be convicted of cheating even if the method of cheating could not be established. In retrospect it sounds like they had been arguing the case of F-S behind the scenes for a while.

I thought it was common, and had been for many, many years, to monitor all tables in the late rounds of major events. That may have changed with the recent trend towards vugraph coverage. Anyway, it's fair to say that all top pairs nowadays play a lot of bridge with others watching to some degree or another. I didn't read the quote about being monitored as an acknowledgment of being monitored specifically as opposed to as part of the normal course for major events. I may be mistaken, of course.
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#42 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2015-August-28, 15:34

View PostPhilKing, on 2015-August-28, 14:19, said:

I know two people who made official complaints backed up with multiple hands at separate events, and these are not isolated instances. Whether the authorities concerned (EBL and WBF) carried out a thorough investigation or not is a matter of speculation. :ph34r:


In one of the BW threads, Sabine Aiken stated that that multiple complaints had been made to the WBF, however, the WBF was unwilling to act unless the accusers could also demonstrate how the pair in question was passing information.

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#43 User is offline   kuhchung 

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Posted 2015-August-28, 15:41

Is there a reason why Boye is teasing us?
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#44 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2015-August-28, 16:08

If you haven't or not willing to go there and read thousands of page, I can try to summarize you.

I have been heavily involved in debates in BW. Basically the discussion and thousands of posts in BW are focused around;

Boye's side focus on
  • Boye's past reputation
  • Amount of risk he is taking in the case of failing to deliver the evidence.
  • Close to a decade of suspicion about the alleged pair by every top player I have relation to or just learned in BW (actually suspicion is understatement, most of them in their mind are convinced)
  • Some of the alleged discipline actions taken by Israeli Federation in the past.
  • Suddenly the pair deciding not to play in BB, although they claim it is
  • Vacating 3 titles that they already won, in 2014-2015 Reisinger-Spingold-Swiss all national titles. (sane person, even under heavy frustration, hardly gives up 3 titles 2 of them being huge, just because they lost 1 title)
  • Broken system which is focused on catching cheaters redhanded just like coughing doctors. On camera, matching coughs with shortness, broken code etc. Happy ending. The argument that says "if we set the bar this high, we will have to wait decades to catch cheaters and there are a lot of them. And NBOs, ACBL, WBF, EBL has to take more effective measures.
  • Poorly bid,played,defended hands, decisions which ends up in success. Which will be put on test by Kit Woolsey method. (although if that is only what Boye has in his hand, god help him)
  • Three wrong claims during the match by alleged pair, benefitting their side, two of which was spotted at the table and corrected, one of them slipped. (remember the match was won by 1 imp even after the appeal)

Alleged pair's side focus on
  • The shape and form of how the accusation made is wrong
  • Timing was wrong
  • Asking for evidence
  • Repeatedly mentioning that Boye put the 2 young players and their livelihood and profession into big risk. And convicted them in the public eye already.
  • Biased BW and their biased staff (Eugene)
  • Boye is jealous and sour grape for losing the appeal and the Spingold.
  • Why did Boye not mention any of these while playing with them in same team. He even played as partner with one of them in an event.
  • Being skeptical about validity of Kit's method.

These are the most common comments, along with a lot of sarcastic, irrelevant replies, and side articles about how to catch cheaters at the top level without having the hard evidence such as how the info was delivered/received, which info was transferred, breaking the code. A lot of people sharing their experience of hands with the alleged pair, trying to come up with a conviction while other side says this is nothing. From my perspective, TOO MANY people trying to make analysis of these hands who are not even close the level of bridge being discussed there, and should have kept their silence.

I hope this helps if you do not want to go through days of painful reading, if you haven't already.
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"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





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#45 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2015-August-28, 16:15

View Postkuhchung, on 2015-August-28, 15:41, said:

Is there a reason why Boye is teasing us?


Why should we care?

He is either teasing us or not.
If he is not teasing and he really got them, we should be happy. If he is indeed teasing us, what he will lose is much more valuable than the 3 titles he already gave up.
We have no money in this game. He went ALL IN. He is the one who will lose everything. So imho we should let the guy play his hand as best as he can, in his own style.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"

"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





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#46 User is offline   kuhchung 

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Posted 2015-August-28, 16:34

But I wanna knooooooow
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#47 User is offline   PhantomSac 

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Posted 2015-August-28, 18:19

Some really incredibly naive posts itt
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#48 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2015-August-28, 18:24

View PostMrAce, on 2015-August-28, 16:15, said:

Why should we care?

He is either teasing us or not.
If he is not teasing and he really got them, we should be happy. If he is indeed teasing us, what he will lose is much more valuable than the 3 titles he already gave up.
We have no money in this game. He went ALL IN. He is the one who will lose everything. So imho we should let the guy play his hand as best as he can, in his own style.

His own style is flamboyant grandstanding. He seems to be relishing his performance. I find this distasteful, even if he is right.
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#49 User is offline   PhantomSac 

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Posted 2015-August-28, 18:35

lol yep that's boye flamboyant grandstanding! obviously he just has lost his mind because he lost by 1 to them so he has decided to vacate all of his previous wins (and his client who paid massive amounts of money for that also agreed to). That theory is brilliant and makes a lot of sense.

Perhaps he has to do this in a flamboyant way for the genius administrators to do anything but cover their own asses. These guys have been monitored for 1 year by these geniuses. Every bid every play, hidden cameras, the works. And yet they have done nothing and will continue to do nothing unless you know maybe someone talks about this in a "flamboyant" way.

How long do you think "whispers" and whatever have to happen before it is decided that you must be monitored for every board. Including paying someone to do that, etc etc. Lol at the earlier estimate of "well it might take a year for the ACBL to do anything!" A year? hahahaha. Try 10. Unless you know maybe someone does something drastic.

What history does Boye have of grandstanding? he's been in the game a long time, what history of drama does he have? Maybe you guys should think a little and let him play his jack of spades.
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#50 User is offline   PhantomSac 

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Posted 2015-August-28, 18:37

And full disclaimer I am not accusing anyone of cheating, just thinking hypothetically because I am too weak to risk my job by being suspended and risk getting sued!

That's what the current system is. Everyone is afraid of getting sued and losing their job and being barred. No one can say anything. You have a guy vacating his wins and risking all of that and you think he's just grandstanding for attention or because he lost by 1. It's brilliant.
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#51 User is offline   PhantomSac 

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Posted 2015-August-28, 18:43

I do wonder some things. Like why are zero people (other than rons brother in law) supporting him? look at the support mike passell got.

Why are they saying nothing? Maybe legal advice but I'm sure if you were innocent while your name was being tarnished you would just sit there and take it that makes sense.

Why are they the only top pair that 100 percent of the whispers are about by top players? Why is this the first time anyone has vacated their wins? Why would the ***** client go along with that with as you guys say "no evidence." Why are they the only ones being monitored?

Why after their cavendish pairs win have they not played since? They even go and play the teams. Really interesting. What are your thoughts on someone being convicted of cheating at 14?

But yes most likely it's a conspiracy against them, people don't like them and boye went insane after losing so vacated his wins and the client went along after paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for that. And probably he has no evidence and wants attention, and probably people change after cheating at 14 and being barred for 2 years. and probably they just choose not to play the cavendish pairs after winning. And probably all top players whispering are wrong and just don't understand the elite level this pair is on.

Brilliant!
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#52 User is offline   PhantomSac 

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Posted 2015-August-28, 18:52

and now the jack of spades is played. maybe you guys can wake up some. remember three more cards left.

www.bridgecheaters.com
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#53 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2015-August-28, 19:09

Justin, dude, noone here said they don't believe Boye has evidence. Just that they don't like his overly dramatic way of presenting it. I believe that's a fair comment.
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#54 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2015-August-28, 19:12

View PostPhantomSac, on 2015-August-28, 18:37, said:

That's what the current system is. Everyone is afraid of getting sued and losing their job and being barred. No one can say anything. You have a guy vacating his wins and risking all of that and you think he's just grandstanding for attention or because he lost by 1. It's brilliant.

Did you bother to read what I wrote? I said he may be right. And even if he is, I don't like his method.
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#55 User is offline   PhantomSac 

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Posted 2015-August-28, 19:13

ok did you read what I wrote! It's quite possible his method is necessary. everyone has tried handling this with recorder forms and just turning over evidence. It does not work!

If potential cheaters are caught via this method when they wouldn't have otherwise then that is a pretty fantastic thing. You have way too much faith in the powers that be if you think just sending the ACBL the info (which he has publicly stated he did) will cause anything to happen in a timely manner. Sorry that has been tried for the last 3 years. Something else is necessary and I applaud his efforts.
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#56 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2015-August-28, 19:21

I wonder whether those critical of Brogeland even know how many events F-S have won in the last three years.
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#57 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2015-August-28, 19:27

View PostPhantomSac, on 2015-August-28, 19:13, said:

ok did you read what I wrote! It's quite possible his method is necessary. everyone has tried handling this with recorder forms and just turning over evidence. It does not work!

If potential cheaters are caught via this method when they wouldn't have otherwise then that is a pretty fantastic thing. You have way too much faith in the powers that be if you think just sending the ACBL the info (which he has publicly stated he did) will cause anything to happen in a timely manner. Sorry that has been tried for the last 3 years. Something else is necessary and I applaud his efforts.

Justin, you just aren't getting it. I am perfectly fine with him taking the evidence public directly, if the organizational channels are known to fail. The problem is his presentation. This is serious business, and he is putting it on like some drama club show, playing up to the big reveal like he thinks he is Perry Mason or something.

As for the evidence you linked - I am not qualified to evaluate it. If a strong majority of top players consider it conclusive, that it enough to satisfy me. Yes, having an expert panel dedicated to this purpose is a good idea.

But I'll pass on the showmanship.
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#58 User is offline   PhantomSac 

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Posted 2015-August-28, 19:32

I get it. I think you don't get my point that showmanship may be necessary. His endgame is presumably to force or entice the leagues to act.

Just revealing everything at once is worse if that's your goal. The leagues are under way more pressure every day to act this way. And hopefully they will. If the ACBL were functional or competent at all I agree this is not the way to go.

I do not know his motive but I think this is creative and smart. I can guarantee you he's not doing it for attention or to be dramatic for the sake of being dramatic.
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#59 User is offline   PhantomSac 

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Posted 2015-August-28, 19:35

View Postcherdano, on 2015-August-28, 19:21, said:

I wonder whether those critical of Brogeland even know how many events F-S have won in the last three years.


how about in the last year alone? They won 2 spingold a the reisinger a Swiss and the Europeans and the world sport accord teams (off the top of my head). This with the very successful graves Schwartz pair lol. They are the best ever for sure, or at least having the sickest run in modern bridge history by far.

oh sorry also with the Cayne team. I think I read that was caynes first spingold win since 1990 in the bulletin but not sure.
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#60 User is offline   kuhchung 

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Posted 2015-August-28, 19:53

i'm posting without reading all the other posts (sorry) but omg this is his 2nd weakest piece of evidence?
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