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Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? Bernie Sanders wants to know who owns America?

#11621 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2018-November-23, 00:51

View PostAl_U_Card, on 2018-November-22, 17:30, said:

That makes you law-abiding citizens of your country. Birth locality is the only criterion for being American (United States version).

It depends on whether you're talking about the legal definition of American or a more spiritual/cultural definition.

#11622 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2018-November-23, 10:09

View PostAl_U_Card, on 2018-November-22, 17:30, said:

That makes you law-abiding citizens of your country. Birth locality is the only criterion for being American (United States version).


So Alexander Hamilton by your definition would not be American. Quaint argument. :lol:
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#11623 User is offline   Al_U_Card 

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Posted 2018-November-23, 10:22

An interesting and salient POV

"Finally, it should be clear by now that a nation can be no stronger abroad than she is at home. Only an America which practices what it preaches about equal rights and social justice will be respected by those whose choice affects our future. Only an America which has fully educated its citizens is fully capable of tackling the complex problems and perceiving the hidden dangers of the world in which we live. And only an America which is growing and prospering economically can sustain the worldwide defenses of freedom, while demonstrating to all concerned the opportunities of our system and society. "
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#11624 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2018-November-25, 12:57

View PostWinstonm, on 2018-November-23, 10:09, said:

So Alexander Hamilton by your definition would not be American. Quaint argument. :lol:

The Constitution makes a special exception for people who were citizens of the colonies at the time of the Revolution; it's not really relevant any more. And there's also naturalization.

#11625 User is online   johnu 

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Posted 2018-November-25, 15:34

View PostAl_U_Card, on 2018-November-22, 17:30, said:

That makes you law-abiding citizens of your country. Birth locality is the only criterion for being American (United States version).


View PostWinstonm, on 2018-November-23, 10:09, said:

So Alexander Hamilton by your definition would not be American. Quaint argument. :lol:


View Postbarmar, on 2018-November-25, 12:57, said:

The Constitution makes a special exception for people who were citizens of the colonies at the time of the Revolution; it's not really relevant any more. And there's also naturalization.


There are also children of US citizens and military personnel who are born abroad (with a few exceptions).
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#11626 User is offline   Al_U_Card 

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Posted 2018-November-25, 19:05

View PostAl_U_Card, on 2018-November-23, 10:22, said:

An interesting and salient POV

"Finally, it should be clear by now that a nation can be no stronger abroad than she is at home. Only an America which practices what it preaches about equal rights and social justice will be respected by those whose choice affects our future. Only an America which has fully educated its citizens is fully capable of tackling the complex problems and perceiving the hidden dangers of the world in which we live. And only an America which is growing and prospering economically can sustain the worldwide defenses of freedom, while demonstrating to all concerned the opportunities of our system and society. "

An excerpt from the speech that JFK had planned on giving at the Trademart in Dallas, Nov. 22, 1963.
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#11627 User is online   johnu 

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Posted 2018-November-26, 02:57

View Postjohnu, on 2018-November-25, 15:34, said:

There are also children of US citizens and military personnel who are born abroad (with a few exceptions).


Of course, some members of the military are not US citizens. Some would say they are more patriotic than "fake bone spurs" Dennison.
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#11628 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2018-November-26, 09:39

Quote

Over the past decade, attackers motivated by right-wing political ideologies have committed dozens of shootings, bombings and other acts of violence, far more than any other category of domestic extremist, according to a Washington Post analysis of data on global terrorism. While the data show a decades-long drop-off in violence by left-wing groups, violence by white supremacists and other far-right attackers has been on the rise since Barack Obama’s presidency — and has surged since President Trump took office.


IMO, what prompts this is what psychologists term "projection" as personal difficulties rise in lockstep with wealth inequity - it is difficult if not impossible to blame your own ideology and worldview for these problems so blame is placed elsewhere, on invisible forces (deep state) and "others" (refugees, immigrants). When that emotion is compounded by the group security of a political rally where everyone is chanting hateful, racists slogans, it is easy to understand certain phenomena.

The biggest challenge faced is to get someone to sit and discuss this long enough to understand it. Explanations aren't slogan-sized.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#11629 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2018-November-26, 10:58

Here's a shock, Dennison and the entire GOP caught in a supply-side lie (again): Yahoo

Quote

Business
GM Just Laid Off 15,000 Workers Less Than One Year After Trump Promised Tax Cuts Would Save US Jobs

Less than one year after historic tax cuts, aimed toward corporations and made with promises from the White House of jobs security for Americans across the country, General Motors announced on Monday that it would be laying off 14,700 of its workers in the United States.

According to a tweet from the Washington Post, the motor company is set to fire 15 percent of its salaried workers, as well as end production at five plants in the U.S. and in Canada.

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#11630 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2018-November-26, 13:53

View PostWinstonm, on 2018-November-26, 10:58, said:

Here's a shock, Dennison and the entire GOP caught in a supply-side lie (again): Yahoo

Did GM at least give those workers a bonus last year, using the windfall from the tax cut?

I don't know, but I do know that they continued their aggressive program of stock buybacks. So this is trickling down to the shareholders, and you know how much they need it. Yachts don't captain themselves.

#11631 User is offline   ldrews 

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Posted 2018-November-26, 16:32

View Postbarmar, on 2018-November-26, 13:53, said:

Did GM at least give those workers a bonus last year, using the windfall from the tax cut?

I don't know, but I do know that they continued their aggressive program of stock buybacks. So this is trickling down to the shareholders, and you know how much they need it. Yachts don't captain themselves.


I wonder if 401ks and pension funds, probably the major shareholders in GM, can captain yachts?
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#11632 User is offline   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2018-November-26, 22:32

Ali Velshi, who grew up in Toronto pointed out that closing the plant in Oshawa, while it will hurt it may not be fatal as it has become more or less a bedroom community for Toronto with a lot of other potential action going on.

Not the case in Ohio where if people have to move to where the jobs are and own a house they will take another bath trying to sell it. Not to mention the damage to any local small businesses. Trump is a slow motion disaster for HIS BASE.
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#11633 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2018-November-26, 23:26

View Postggwhiz, on 2018-November-26, 22:32, said:

Ali Velshi, who grew up in Toronto pointed out that closing the plant in Oshawa, while it will hurt it may not be fatal as it has become more or less a bedroom community for Toronto with a lot of other potential action going on.

Not the case in Ohio where if people have to move to where the jobs are and own a house they will take another bath trying to sell it. Not to mention the damage to any local small businesses. Trump is a slow motion disaster for HIS BASE.


That base is shrinking. Latest polls show 38% approval with 60% disapproval. How 2% can still be undecided is the only mystery to me.

And after the disaster of the midterms there is evidence that the GOP is starting to turn away, as well, as a few Republican senators are not buying the Dennison-Saudi love affair as valid.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#11634 User is online   johnu 

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Posted 2018-November-27, 00:23

View PostWinstonm, on 2018-November-26, 23:26, said:

That base is shrinking. Latest polls show 38% approval with 60% disapproval. How 2% can still be undecided is the only mystery to me.

And after the disaster of the midterms there is evidence that the GOP is starting to turn away, as well, as a few Republican senators are not buying the Dennison-Saudi love affair as valid.


Republican approval numbers for Dennison was 86% (and has been actually increasing since mid 2017). If anything, the base is even more vested in Dennison than before he was elected. On the other hand, approval among independents is 34% where it's been for most of Dennison's term. You can't win elections if the independents don't swing your way.

Presidential Approval Ratings

Other Republican politicians in any kind of swing district or state will start distancing themselves from their own records, and Dennison's, before the 2020 general election.
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#11635 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2018-November-27, 09:10

View Postjohnu, on 2018-November-27, 00:23, said:

Republican approval numbers for Dennison was 86% (and has been actually increasing since mid 2017). If anything, the base is even more vested in Dennison than before he was elected. On the other hand, approval among independents is 34% where it's been for most of Dennison's term. You can't win elections if the independents don't swing your way.

Presidential Approval Ratings

Other Republican politicians in any kind of swing district or state will start distancing themselves from their own records, and Dennison's, before the 2020 general election.


Percentages don't tell the whole story, though. From Brooking Institute:

Quote

As the following graph of Gallup polls indicates, both political parties find themselves less popular now than they did in 2004 with a substantial rise in those who identify as independents. For the Democrats, party identification peaked in Obama’s first term and then dropped in his second term. For Republicans, party identification took a sharp drop at the end of George W. Bush’s second term and never really recovered. The trend seems to have taken another drop after Trump’s election.


Dennison retains a high approval rate among those who still admit to being Republican, but that doesn't mean his support isn't shrinking. Nixon had similar numbers (36% approval) as late as August of 1973, and his disapproval number did not rise to match Dennison's 60% until October 1973. He resigned August 9, 1974. We have hope. B-)
Source: https://historyinpie...pproval-ratings
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#11636 User is online   johnu 

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Posted 2018-November-27, 17:40

Doctors Say Using Tear Gas On Migrant Children Can Have Severe, Long-Lasting Effects

Quote

Dennison denied that tear gas was used on the children, despite photographs and videos that show it was.


Well, Dennison's denial is certainly undeniable proof for Fox Propaganda and Republicans. Forget the pictures and videos. Just remember, this is the president who had the largest inaugural crowd in the history of the world.
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#11637 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2018-November-28, 07:05

The Daily Beast:

Quote

Donald Trump, a princeling who was raised in luxury, never held accountable for any of his countless personal and business betrayals and failures, and who literally lived in a golden tower for most of his life, is not good with stress. His rage-tweeting shows us that he knows he can’t juggle all the crises steaming toward him, that he knows his astounding power to distort reality for his followers won’t shield him from the political, legal, and personal perils closing in on him.

Playtime is over, and Donald doesn't like it.


Tick-tock, tick-tock...
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#11638 User is offline   jjbrr 

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Posted 2018-November-28, 12:15

Cindy Hyde-Smith (R: 2018 – ):



Her predecessor, Thad Cochran (R: 1978 – 2018):



His predecessor, James Eastland (D: 1941, 1943 – 1978):



In between Eastland's terms, Wall Doxey, (1941-1943):




Eastland's predecessor, Pat Harrison (D: 1919 – 1941):



His predecessor, James Vardaman (D: 1913 – 1919):


OK
bed
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#11639 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2018-November-28, 13:07

View Postjjbrr, on 2018-November-28, 12:15, said:



There is a reason the movie was titled "Mississippi Burning".
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#11640 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2018-November-28, 20:39

In case no one knows, Paul Manafort has been acting as a mole inside the Mueller investigation and passing information to Trump and his lawyers. This becomes critical:

From the Washington Post:


Quote

The stunning implications of the Manafort-Trump pipeline


By Harry Litman November 28 at 4:04 PM
Harry Litman teaches constitutional law at the University of California at San Diego. He has served as U.S. attorney for the Western District of Pennsylvania and deputy assistant attorney general.

Following the implosion of Paul Manafort’s cooperation agreement with special counsel Robert S. Mueller III , a lawyer for President Trump casually announced that Manafort’s lawyers had been briefing Trump’s lawyers about his sessions with the Mueller team all along.

This revelation, far from routine, in fact is jaw-dropping — and it has significant legal and political implications.

First, and least, it represents another breach of the demolished cooperation agreement that Manafort entered into to avoid the expense and near-certain conviction in a second trial.

Some defense attorneys have asserted that it is common for cooperating witnesses to share information with other suspects (as we know the president is here) or putative defendants. Not so. Once a witness enters into a cooperation agreement with the government — which he does for the very valuable consideration of a potential reduction in sentence — he has agreed contractually to a full, no-holds-barred provision of information. The government in turn will frame questions and possibly share evidence with the witness, all of which reveal the government’s thinking. The universal understanding is that the witness will not run back and reveal the government’s case to potential suspects.


A witness is normally free to talk to defense attorneys if he chooses. A cooperator is not (and that holds whether it is expressly spelled out in the agreement).

The spectacular rise and fall of Paul Manafort
Before he joined the Trump campaign, Paul Manafort made a name for himself in the D.C. lobbying world, but his past caught up with him. (Dalton Bennett , Jon Gerberg, Jesse Mesner-Hage/The Washington Post)

Second, whatever Team Trump may assert, the conversations between some combination of Manafort, Trump and the lawyers for both of them were not privileged, and Mueller is entitled to know their contents.

Defendants are entitled to enter into privileged conversations with their own lawyers, and the government cannot force the attorney to reveal them. This is entirely proper and part of the constitutional guarantee of effective assistance of counsel. A corollary to this principle permits co-defendants and potential defendants to share certain information — essentially the same information that would be shielded by the attorney-client privilege for either of them — on the grounds that they have a “common interest.” This interest is generally set out in a joint defense agreement, or JDA, which confirms the umbrella of covered discussions.


Crucially, however, the JDA can operate only among parties who , in fact, have a common interest. A defendant cannot simply pick and choose people he wants to talk to and thereafter claim that a conversation is privileged. And when Manafort entered into the cooperation agreement with the government, he ceased to have a common interest with other defendants, including the president, as a matter of law. As former U.S. attorney Chuck Rosenberg put it, having signed with the Yankees, he couldn’t give scouting reports to the Red Sox.

Thus, Mueller is fully entitled to subpoena Manafort counsel Kevin Downing and whichever Trump counsel spoke with him (one trusts it wasn’t Emmet Flood, who is too savvy for such shenanigans) and force them to reveal every word of the discussions.

But that’s where political considerations possibly intercede. It is possible that Trump’s counselors bank on Mueller staying his hand to avoid loud (if bogus) cries of foul play from Trump apologists, renewed rants from Trump about a witch hunt and even, possibly, a refusal from acting attorney general Matthew G. Whitaker to permit the subpoenas to go forward.


Finally, the open pipeline between cooperator Manafort and suspect Trump may have been not only extraordinary but also criminal. On Manafort and Downing’s end, there is a circumstantial case for obstruction of justice. What purpose other than an attempt to “influence, obstruct, or impede” the investigation of the president can be discerned from Manafort’s service as a double agent? And on the Trump side, the communications emit a strong scent of illegal witness tampering (and possibly obstruction as well).

Proving those charges would require a fight. The lawyers would be expected to assert privilege, and cries of overreach would sound from the White House and pro-Trump journalists. Whitaker could impede or countermand the effort.

But it’s critical to understand the stakes of the battle. Even more than the president’s potential criminal liability, there is a set of burning questions about exactly what happened in 2016, the extent to which Russian efforts to influence the presidential election found purchase in the United States, and what part was played by high-level Trump campaign officials or the president himself. It is intolerable to consider that the truth of these consequential matters would be smothered and kept from the American people indefinitely. But that’s exactly what the president’s overall strategy aims to do, and with the support, at least tacitly, of a complicit still-Republican-majority — for now — Congress. Is there no one in the GOP with the guts to stand up to the president and the resolve to see that the truth will out?

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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