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Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? Bernie Sanders wants to know who owns America?

#8061 User is offline   RedSpawn 

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Posted 2017-November-13, 03:47

View PostWinstonm, on 2017-November-12, 22:56, said:

You are confused as to timelines. The missile tests came after a successful nuclear test. Also, Kim Jung-un did not come into power until December of 2011.

Most of North Korea's goals are based on survival as a nation.

Agreed. And one of the reasons Kim-Jung-un wants reunification of North Korea with South Korea is he will then control the sea lanes of the Korean Peninsula and become a major player and power broker in the Asia-Pacific Rim trade market.

True, he could try to sell his nuclear capabilities to Jihadist organizations for money but at the end of the day he needs MONEY to finance his military payroll, maintain his lavish lifestyle, and feed his people.

Whether he gets the money, then the power, and then the respect through creating new Asia-Pacific maritime rules and protocol for the Korean Peninsula or though illicit, underground nuclear arms deals or both. . .only time will tell but none of our options look appetizing at this juncture.

Where is that slippery slope when you need one? Oh, there it is . . .

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#8062 User is offline   RedSpawn 

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Posted 2017-November-13, 04:46

http://abcnews.go.co...ory?id=50996546

When the feces hits the ceiling, the Air Force calls in the Inspector General to determine what internal controls senior management failed to monitor that contributed to the Texas church massacre.

We need to stop faking the funk and HEAVILY FUND our INSPECTOR GENERAL DEPARTMENTS to expose the significant material weaknesses in the internal control structure of federal agencies and their exposure to lethal outcomes like this one.

We don't need BIGGER government as in more agencies. Looking from 2001 - Now, we already have that monster in our lives and bigger government has not translated to better government or better governance.

We need responsive federal agencies with managers who are capable of taking ownership of their fiefdoms; conducting consistent internal reviews; and implementing thoughtful, necessary systemic changes. This will help maximize operating effectiveness of federal agencies while minimizing opportunities or tolerance for gross professional negligence as is the case with the Air Force in this situation.

Sure, we have federal employee unions that provide protections against terminations. However, union protection should not translate to institutional inertia unless management is complicit in abrogating its responsibility to supervise its people; observe and report gross lapses in employee performance and behavior; and counsel and discipline non-performers.

Ex-post facto internal audits aren't a preventative measure -- they're symptomatic of reactionary leadership and ineffectual triage management. It's too late for the Air Force because innocent blood has been shed as sacrificial payment for this management oversight and major lapse in internal control.

Our nation needs to stand up and demand more accountability and more Inspector Generals to issue management reports and weekly and bi-weekly press releases that become the relished 60 Minutes special investigations that provide the public with a 1st hand account of how our tax dollars are being used, misused, and abused.

The best kind of vision is super-vision. WATCH and MONITOR the people in the fiefdom. Also, sunshine is the best form of disinfectant against the scourge of graft. We need more Inspector Generals to shine a beacon of light on the scale and scope of these problems BEFORE they escalate and spiral out of control.

I am confident there is enough mismanagement, waste, graft, and corruption to create a government reality show to titillate the masses for decades.
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#8063 User is offline   RedSpawn 

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Posted 2017-November-13, 09:43

Please delete-duplicate.
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#8064 User is offline   RedSpawn 

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Posted 2017-November-13, 11:39

View PostWinstonm, on 2017-November-11, 16:24, said:

For those who refuse to think for themselves, it is important due to Trump's denial of Russian interference and acceptance of Putin's word over his own intelligence officers combined with his attack as political the motivations of the 4 independent intelligence services who fingered Russia and Putin.

It's a big deal when the president sides with the enemy over his own people.

Maybe there is a larger cat and mouse game here:

THOUGHTS TO CONSIDER:

1) From a foreign policy perspective, we have to hold our friends close and our enemies even closer.

2) If Russia is guilty of election meddling, what is the cure aside from removing Trump from office?

3) Did our nation pay a penalty of equal measure when we meddled in foreign elections to protect American interests or did we assume American exceptionalism provided us diplomatic immunity from such transgressions?

4) I think we need Russia AS AN ALLY to extinguish this North Korea problem in the long run because North Korea is suspicious of China (as its government structure evolves and rolls out economic sanctions) and views America as an overly aggressive, sinister and hypocritical bully.

On the international stage, we need Russia to play good cop and China and the U.S. to play bad cop. We have to get North Korea to believe that the US and Russia are sworn enemies to make it appear as if NK is getting a "good deal" on the international stage if it negotiates through Russia.

Hmmmm, maybe we are executing this strategy now but the public messaging is keeping us fixated on the Russian collusion angle which appears to be a smaller global threat than the NK nuclearization.

Let us not forget that North Korean officials met with Russian officials in September 2017 which demonstrates NK is open to discussing matters. We and Russia have to continue to play a SPY VS. SPY game to keep Kim Jung-un receptive to brokering peace talks through Russia.

Source: https://www.upi.com/.../2781506518035/
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#8065 User is offline   ldrews 

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Posted 2017-November-13, 12:23

View Posthrothgar, on 2017-November-13, 03:18, said:

If "searching for a solution" is sufficient to be "addressing the problem", how is what Trump is doing different than Obama?


Do you really think that Obama's efforts regarding North Korea are of the same magnitude as Trump's efforts?

I do not remember Obama sending 3 aircraft carrier groups to the North Korean area. I do not remember Obama telling the other countries that if you do business with North Korea you don't get to do business with the US. I don't remember Obama going on an international tour of several Asian countries and at each stop specifically requesting help to reign in North Korea.

Do you?
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#8066 User is offline   ldrews 

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Posted 2017-November-13, 12:29

View PostWinstonm, on 2017-November-12, 22:56, said:

Most of North Korea's goals are based on survival as a nation.


I don't think their approach will work out well for them.
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#8067 User is offline   RedSpawn 

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Posted 2017-November-13, 12:43

View Postldrews, on 2017-November-13, 12:23, said:

Do you really think that Obama's efforts regarding North Korea are of the same magnitude as Trump's efforts?

I do not remember Obama sending 3 aircraft carrier groups to the North Korean area. I do not remember Obama telling the other countries that if you do business with North Korea you don't get to do business with the US. I don't remember Obama going on an international tour of several Asian countries and at each stop specifically requesting help to reign in North Korea.

Do you?

Did you read my response of President Obama's foreign policy strategy on North Korea? Please at least skim read all links below to see the actions President Obama took regarding North Korea.

View PostRedSpawn, on 2017-November-12, 02:58, said:

It sounds like you need sources to show President Obama's foreign policy toward North Korea. Your wish is my command. . .

Sources:

https://www.treasury...q_other.aspx#nk ==> Look for North Korea sanctions and Executive Order 13722 by President Obama in March 2016.

http://www.bbc.com/n...d-asia-35828831

https://www.nytimes....ghts-abuse.html

https://www.reuters....E9460CX20130507


This closing of North Korean foreign trade accounts was completed by China in conjunction with the economic sanctions President Obama had issued on North Korea.

Please review Executive Order 13722.

Source:
https://www.hsdl.org...ract&did=791357 ==> Notice that it has President Obama saying how he is responding to North Korea's nuclear and missile program.


I think the links above along with the closing of the North Korean bank accounts at the Bank of China, LTD clearly show that Obama was actively aware and implementing policies and issuing executive orders to address North Korea's provocative acts and nuclear testing.

The North Korea sanctions is a NOT a new thing that President Trump is doing; it's a continuation of some of President Obama's previous foreign policy strategies.

The difference this time is the guy in front of the White House microphone is a mythic Anglo Saxon tragic hero who is more appealing to certain members of the tribal American electorate.


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#8068 User is offline   RedSpawn 

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Posted 2017-November-13, 13:16

View Postldrews, on 2017-November-13, 12:23, said:

Do you really think that Obama's efforts regarding North Korea are of the same magnitude as Trump's efforts?

I do not remember Obama sending 3 aircraft carrier groups to the North Korean area. I do not remember Obama telling the other countries that if you do business with North Korea you don't get to do business with the US. I don't remember Obama going on an international tour of several Asian countries and at each stop specifically requesting help to reign in North Korea.

Do you?

You are correct. President Obama didn't practice full-on gunboat diplomacy or cowboy diplomacy on North Korea. He had a much cooler head than to practice jingoism as well.

Might doesn't always make right.

Time will tell if Obama's strategy was a vice or a virtue when it's compared to Trump's mercurial, ego-driven approach.

The jury is still out (but make sure you review the links in the post above to see what specific actions Obama took).

President Obama was not as hawkish as President Trump because he wanted to find a diplomatic solution to this conundrum than a military one.
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#8069 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2017-November-13, 17:04

This article from The Atlantic starts to peel back the curtain in Oz.

Quote

WikiLeaks didn’t respond to that message, but on October 12, 2016, the account again messaged Trump Jr. “Hey Donald, great to see you and your dad talking about our publications,” WikiLeaks wrote. (At a rally on October 10, Donald Trump had proclaimed, “I love WikiLeaks!”)

“Strongly suggest your dad tweets this link if he mentions us,” WikiLeaks went on, pointing Trump Jr. to the link wlsearch.tk, which it said would help Trump’s followers dig through the trove of stolen documents and find stories. “There’s many great stories the press are missing and we’re sure some of your follows [sic] will find it,” WikiLeaks went on. “Btw we just released Podesta Emails Part 4.”

Trump Jr. did not respond to this message. But just 15 minutes after it was sent, as The Wall Street Journal’s Byron Tau pointed out, Donald Trump himself tweeted, “Very little pick-up by the dishonest media of incredible information provided by WikiLeaks. So dishonest! Rigged system!”


Russia-Wikileaks-Trump

Will the circle be unbroken, by and by, Lord, by and by...
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#8070 User is offline   RedSpawn 

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Posted 2017-November-13, 18:26

View PostWinstonm, on 2017-November-13, 17:04, said:

This article from The Atlantic starts to peel back the curtain in Oz.

Russia-Wikileaks-Trump

Will the circle be unbroken, by and by, Lord, by and by...

Good question.

Winston, the United States is marshalling any and all resources to get to the bottom of this Russian collusion which could have associations with Assange (Wikileaks) who is in his 3rd year of political asylum at an Ecuadorean embassy.

Our Department of Justice wants to hold Assange and the Trump administration accountable for very embarrassing leaks under federal espionage laws; yet I don't see the same level of commitment to hold the powerful and all-seeing intelligence agencies accountable for the civil liberties violations documented and revealed in the mouthwatering Wikileaks.

Is there a compelling reason for this type of selective justice? Are we to ignore the tasty fruit that awakens us to the inconvenient truth of the violations of our privacy and our electronic intellectual property simply because it comes from a poisonous Wikileaks tree?

Uncle Sam is a nosy family member!
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#8071 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2017-November-13, 20:21

View PostWinstonm, on 2017-November-13, 17:04, said:

This article from The Atlantic starts to peel back the curtain in Oz.



Russia-Wikileaks-Trump

Will the circle be unbroken, by and by, Lord, by and by...


The first paragraph:\\

Quote

Just before the stroke of midnight on September 20, 2016, at the height of last year's presidential election, the WikiLeaks Twitter account sent a private direct message to Donald Trump Jr., the Republican nominee's oldest son and campaign surrogate. "A PAC run anti-Trump site putintrump.org is about to launch," WikiLeaks wrote. "The PAC is a recycled pro-Iraq war PAC. We have guessed the password. It is 'putintrump.' See 'About' for who is behind it. Any comments?" (The site, which has since become a joint project with Mother Jones, was founded by Rob Glaser, a tech entrepreneur, and was funded by Progress for USA Political Action Committee.)


Do I understand this correctly? The site name is putintrump.org and WikiLeaks was able to guess the password as putintrump? This goes a long way toward explaining how WikiLeaks was able to hack into things. I'm an old guy, I sometimes get confused by modern technology, but this stupid I am not. Couldn't they at least do lyudmilamelania?
Ken
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#8072 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2017-November-13, 22:07

View Postkenberg, on 2017-November-13, 20:21, said:

The first paragraph:\\

Do I understand this correctly? The site name is putintrump.org and WikiLeaks was able to guess the password as putintrump? This goes a long way toward explaining how WikiLeaks was able to hack into things. I'm an old guy, I sometimes get confused by modern technology, but this stupid I am not. Couldn't they at least do lyudmilamelania?


I find it odd that from that article this is your takeaway. :blink:
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#8073 User is offline   RedSpawn 

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Posted 2017-November-13, 22:50

View PostWinstonm, on 2017-November-13, 22:07, said:

I find it odd that from that article this is your takeaway. :blink:

LOLOLOL!

That sand at the mirage is so tasty. . . as refreshing as FIJI® water.
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#8074 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2017-November-14, 01:24

View Postkenberg, on 2017-November-13, 20:21, said:

Do I understand this correctly? The site name is putintrump.org and WikiLeaks was able to guess the password as putintrump? This goes a long way toward explaining how WikiLeaks was able to hack into things. I'm an old guy, I sometimes get confused by modern technology, but this stupid I am not. Couldn't they at least do lyudmilamelania?


I think you are misunderstanding something. Wikileads claimed they guessed the password. It's equally possible that they hacked the site and changed the password. Either way, it was a crime to send the password on to Don Jr.

As an aside, I am quite surprised that the "radical transparency organisation" WikiLeaks did not publish these communications by themselves. Not.
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#8075 User is offline   RedSpawn 

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Posted 2017-November-14, 03:51

View PostWinstonm, on 2017-November-13, 22:07, said:

I find it odd that from that article this is your takeaway. :blink:

I think this Russian collusion story is really about how technology has disrupted the intelligence agencies ability to control the narrative (propaganda) and thus the public opinion in our elections. Radical transparency organizations can hack network systems and publish titillating information overnight that sway public opinion and instantly change the poll leader.

This is worrisome on principle alone. But, it is even more worrisome in a Presidential campaign financing system where the victor and the loser are beholden to answering to powerful, gargantuan donors when a surprise disrupts this well-oiled political machine.

Trump won and that, my friend, was an unpleasant surprise.

The Washington elite could not digest this new political reality. They had to admit to their comrades and dismayed donors that their political analysis was wrong and deeply flawed. And there's two things politicians don't like to do: (1) Publicly acknowledge their mistakes and (2) Pi$$ off big donors! It was a new experience for some of the Washington elite and as expected, they realized they weren't in Kansas anymore and became determined to find out how they got played and who perpetrated this fraud.

Enter political kabuki theatre.

Our government didn't take this election meddling threat THAT seriously until HRC loss and conceded defeat. Trump became President-Elect and leader of THE FORGOTTEN, THE DOWNTRODDEN, THE UNHEARD, THE DISILLUSIONED, and yes, even THE DEPLORABLES. Trump's ascension to power elevated the national security threat assessment for election meddling to high as hell. It was only then that our federal agencies and the 4th estate formally declared that a miscarriage of justice had occurred.

Convenient timing for such collective outrage.

A seemingly rigged federal election produced an unplanned outcome. Who would've thought? Clearly, the powerful wizards of Washington were caught off guard when their magic didn't work this season. They had no choice but to pull almost every lever of the United States government to identify the bad actors.

That's what Congress spent all of 2017 unapologetically doing. Congress hasn't passed many meaningful bills this year but has provided an excellent platform of eye candy hearings over the Russia collusion story line. Almost all of the hearings were fit for public consumption.

Sadly, we are in a perpetual state of reactionary leadership and ineffectual triage management. And that back story won't receive much attention because it isn't as sexy as espionage overtures.

Trump's ascension to the Office of the President was a rude awakening for the Washington elite. They went all in on a post-Cold War national retail politics strategy and that approach failed BIG TIME. And these bought politicians better have some damn good answers for their huge political donors who wasted all of that precious money on a losing Presidential candidate.

In response, Washington declared that there was an enemy of the state that had infiltrated our election system and attacked the foundation of our democracy.

And now that enemy is Wikileaks which is an alleged front for the Russian government. Fascinating...

All I need to do now is find my ruby red shoes, put them on, close my eyes, and click my heels three times and repeat, "There's no place like home!"
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#8076 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2017-November-14, 06:48

View PostWinstonm, on 2017-November-13, 22:07, said:

I find it odd that from that article this is your takeaway. :blink:


Well, the Trumps being involved with the Russians is more of same. Hardly even news. But maybe stupidity with passwords by people who should know better falls into the same category. Or maybe Cherdano is right and Wikileaks didn't discover the weak password, they changed it to a weak password. I sort of doubt this, but who knows.


And yes, I know it is "alleged" involvement with the Russians. Indeed we have Putin's word for it, and Trump's assurance that Putin wouldn't lie, that he did no such thing. Sort of like the alleged shooter in Texas.
Ken
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#8077 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-November-14, 08:32

Fine words Red but this sadly does not stand up to the slightest of scrutiny. If the PTBs wanted to take revenge for the factor that swung the election against their supposedly preferred option, all they would need to do is assassinate Comey. It was after all his announcement that certainly made enough of a difference to change the result. Except that in your theory, he should have been working with the intelligence services for a HC win, right?

The truth is that Russia has tried to influence American politics since forever but have probably never had as much success as in the last one. Technology certainly played its part in that success; the open question is whether collusion with the Trump campaign was also a factor in the level of success.

As far as WikiLeaks goes, I am fairly confident that the PTBs are much more concerned about the security breaches and flow of unauthorised information than the potential to affect elections. To the military, WikiLeaks is like a virtual enemy power. Is collusion with a virtual enemy any better than collusion with a physical one? Legally perhaps, since the Law is slow to catch up with such matters, but morally?

Finally, what is your source for WikiLeaks being a front for the Russian government? It seems quite clear that government-sponsored Russian agents are using WikiLeaks to their advantage. Why would they not? That is hardly the same as the people in charge of WikiLeaks having direct links with the Kremlin. Of course those links might be there too but B does not necessarily follow from A here. And given the campaign against Assange from Washington, is it any surprise that he might not be entirely sympathetic to them. In this way he is essentially using the Russians every bit as much as they are using him. I fail to see why anyone would think the military brass would be happy about the whole thing irrespective of DT or the election result.
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#8078 User is offline   RedSpawn 

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Posted 2017-November-14, 08:51

View PostZelandakh, on 2017-November-14, 08:32, said:

...
Finally, what is your source for WikiLeaks being a front for the Russian government?

The very article supplied by Winston says AMERICAN INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES believe Wikileaks was chosen by the Russian government as an agent (or accomplice).

Who am I to ever question the integrity and all-seeing eye of AMERICAN INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES as a legitimate source?

Quote

The messages show Wikileaks, a radical transparency organization that the American intelligence community believes was chosen by the Russian government to disseminate the information it had hacked, actively soliciting Trump, Jr's cooperation.


Source: https://www.theatlan...kileaks/545738/
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#8079 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-November-14, 09:08

View PostRedSpawn, on 2017-November-14, 08:51, said:

The very article supplied by Winston says AMERICAN INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES believe Wikileaks was chosen by the Russia government as an agent (or accomplice).

Could you provide the quote? The one I see is:-

Quote

The messages show WikiLeaks, a radical transparency organization that the American intelligence community believes was chosen by the Russian government to disseminate the information it had hacked

...which is quite a different thing. I can choose Dailymotion to disseminate videos supporting almost anything; but their presence does not mean that Dailymotion would be actively engaging with me, nor even that anyone there even shares the slightest of agreement with the views contained in the videos. Once again, the Russians using WikiLeaks to release stolen information does not in any way show that WikiLeaks is a front for the Russian government.
(-: Zel :-)
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#8080 User is offline   RedSpawn 

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Posted 2017-November-14, 09:42

View PostZelandakh, on 2017-November-14, 09:08, said:

Could you provide the quote? The one I see is:-

...which is quite a different thing. I can choose Dailymotion to disseminate videos supporting almost anything; but their presence does not mean that Dailymotion would be actively engaging with me, nor even that anyone there even shares the slightest of agreement with the views contained in the videos. Once again, the Russians using WikiLeaks to release stolen information does not in any way show that WikiLeaks is a front for the Russian government.

I think we are arguing over semantics.

Wikileaks works with 5 selected news agencies across the world to determine what "trove" of documents can be released on its platform. Source: https://www.technolo...bout-wikileaks/

An agent is a person or thing that acts on behalf of another or acts a proxy of another. Official awareness or scienter of this relationship is not necessary. Someone can be fooled into acting as an agent of another.

The quote is worded to suggest the American intelligence community believes Wikileaks was chosen by the Russian government to disseminate information it had hacked.

This means Wikileaks became either an active agent or an unwitting agent of the principal, the Russian government. It became a communications outlet for the dissemination of propaganda that was factually accurate and completely damning regarding HRC and the DNC.

At the end of the day, the article suggests and the American intelligence community believes Wikileaks is working to further Russian interests since it allegedly tipped the scales of the 2016 Presidential election to their desired candidate.

Whether the exact nature of the relationship between Russia & Wikileaks is agreed-upon collusion or as an unwitting dupe in an international spy vs. spy internet game -- I'll let the espionage experts and our Department of Justice decide.
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