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Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? Bernie Sanders wants to know who owns America?

#7481 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2017-October-01, 11:00

View Posthrothgar, on 2017-October-01, 08:39, said:

@ken

There is an interview with TNC coming up on Meet the Press this AM


Thanks. I just saw this now and since I do not usually watch Meet the Press I missed the show. I did just now read the transcript. Maybe I am just getting used to him but he seemed like a softer gentler TNC. Take, for example:

Quote

CHUCK TODD:

Do you think Donald-- do we get Donald Trump without Barack Obama as president?

TA-NEHISI COATES:

I don't think so. I don't think, without that reaction. Now that doesn't mean that there weren't other factors contributing to, you know, the Trump presidency, ultimately. I would argue that white supremacy is an indispensable factor. Which does not mean there weren't other factors that were there, too. But I think if you take that out, no. No, no. I don't think it's a mistake that we've never had a president who's never held political office or never you know been in, you know, had a military posting or anything at all, no experience within the public sphere at all, to just hand it off like that. I don’t--I think Trump is different. He's not Marco Rubio. He's not Mitt Romney. This is a very, very different thing. And I think, 50 years from now, historians are going to ask themselves how this actually happened. And I think the answer is going to be the reaction to Barack Obama's presidency.



This is the sort of thing where I could agree he probably has a point. I doubt thta he and I would agree on details or on focus, but I don't doubt that there is something to this.
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#7482 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2017-October-01, 11:43

View Postkenberg, on 2017-October-01, 11:00, said:

Thanks. I just saw this now and since I do not usually watch Meet the Press I missed the show. I did just now read the transcript. Maybe I am just getting used to him but he seemed like a softer gentler TNC. Take, for example:



This is the sort of thing where I could agree he probably has a point. I doubt thta he and I would agree on details or on focus, but I don't doubt that there is something to this.


IMO, another consideration is that when TNC says or writes "white supremacy" I think he is talking about that state which we would call "white privilege" rather than white supremacy, as WS makes us think of neo-nazis, skinheads, and KKK, certainly not of ourselves.

But it is just that group of white voters - non-skinheads, non-neo-nazis, and non-KKK, who cannot and do not see themselves as racist but surely are - who propelled Trump into the wh.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#7483 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2017-October-01, 14:29

From Want to Know What Divides This Country? Come to Alabama by Diane McWhorter:

Quote

“Just wow,” Peggy and Mark Kennedy said to each other last week in Montgomery, Ala. On the TV, Roy Moore had just pulled a little pistol from a pocket of his cowboy costume to show his love for the Second Amendment. The next night he won the Republican nomination in the race to be their next senator.

Peggy, née Wallace, braced for a new round of interviews, having often been asked during the presidential campaign to compare Donald Trump with her father, the segregationist governor George C. Wallace. “But my daddy was qualified” for office, she would say, long since a supporter of Barack Obama.

She and Mr. Kennedy, a predecessor of Mr. Moore on the state Supreme Court, represent one current of Alabama history — a slice of the population yearning against the “fear and anger and hate” that Ms. Kennedy says her father exploited, and ultimately repented of. An irony of Southern history is the pride we take in the progress we tried so hard to thwart, whether it’s to cheer the Crimson Tide’s star-quarterback-who-happens-to-be-black, Jalen Hurts, or to give awards to native-born civil rights leaders like John Lewis, to whom Wallace famously apologized for the Selma bridge beating.

Partly this pride is a self-preservation mechanism of the Chamber of Commerce, which in Wallace’s heyday cringed at the uncouth antics of his largely rural supporters and ultimately joined the civil rights movement’s call for desegregation. So what’s remarkable today is the degree to which the classic Republican establishment has been captured by those mutant politicians — like Mr. Trump and Mr. Moore — recombinantly engineered by the party’s social Darwinist policies and id-emotion demagogy.

The Republican Party has long preyed on the shame of dispossessed white voters. But that shame — over “being viewed as second-class citizens,” Mr. Kennedy said — has converted into a defiance that the party doesn’t yet seem to grasp.
“Populism” has become a convenient shorthand for the nihilistic backlash, and the term has come to invoke a collection of largely irrational cultural tropes. But this doesn’t do justice to the critique of capitalism at the heart of the insurgency.

Original, post-Reconstruction populism was the crucible in which the elite deformed the have-nots’ economic urgency into racial anxiety. Alabama yeomen had returned from the Civil War to face a sea change in agriculture, with those formerly independent farmers joining former slaves in peonage to the large landholders. By the 1880s, under the Farmers Alliance, they were mounting a struggle of what one member called “organized labor against legalized robbery.” In 1892 they seceded from the Democratic Party. Strikingly, the new People’s Party, or Populists, included former slaves.

Realizing they had a revolution on their hands, the Democratic Party’s wealthy ex-Confederates and newly arrived Northern industrialists swiftly put this cross-racial revolt down. They cut off credit to Populist activists and expelled them from their churches; lynchings spiked. They also patented the timeless rejoinders to “class warfare,” calling the Populists a “communistic ring” and, crucially, as one Alabama publication put it, “nigger lovers and nigger huggers.”

The power of racial shame ensured that this thwarted biracial uprising would be a fluke of history. When the white have-nots revolted in successive decades, they appropriated the elite’s racist shibboleths — and took them so much further than the haves ever intended. In 1926 they sent Hugo Black, the candidate of the resurgent Ku Klux Klan, to the Senate, where he became an architect of the New Deal (he later became a staunch civil libertarian on the Supreme Court).

And even when the elites were in charge of the racism, they could not always control the monster white supremacy they had created. In Birmingham, the fire hoses and police dogs of Eugene Connor, known as Bull, a city commissioner installed by the “Big Mules,” not only hastened the end of legal segregation but also made his city kryptonite for economic development.

The axiom of unintended consequences is the same today, and explains why populism remains ideologically incoherent: Caught up in feel-good spasms of nativism, the base is willing to overlook the Trump administration’s elite, kleptocratic culture. And the tax-cut-hungry Republican establishment keeps sowing the whirlwind, under the assumption that, in Mr. Kennedy’s words, its base “would rather be poor than not be proud.” Though the party — and Mr. Trump — backed Mr. Moore’s button-down runoff opponent, Luther Strange, it has shown no hesitation in pivoting to the winner.

But the Alabama psyche is complex, and Mr. Trump may have misread it at the now legendary rally in Huntsville where he tore into knee-taking black N.F.L. players — many of whom come out of Alabama football programs and therefore, Mr. Kennedy dryly observed, “are family.” Not surprisingly, it is in the biracial character of modern football that Alabamians feel comfortable expressing their redemptive impulses, so much so that Mr. Trump received a mild rebuke from the state’s spiritual leader, the Alabama football coach Nick Saban.

Also important to that redemption narrative is the South’s belated prosecution of civil rights era crimes, and one of its major protagonists is Doug Jones, Mr. Moore’s Democratic opponent for the Dec. 12 special election. As the United States attorney for North Alabama under Bill Clinton, Mr. Jones brought murder charges against the last two living suspects in Birmingham’s 16th Street Baptist Church bombing, which killed four black girls in 1963. (I have been friends with Mr. Jones since covering the two trials, in 2001 and 2002, at which the two defendants were convicted.)

While his appeal to black voters is self-evident, Mr. Jones is also culturally correct by Southern-white standards, a deer-hunting, bourbon-drinking, “Roll, Tide!” product of a Wallace-supporting household in Birmingham’s steel-mill suburbs, who did well as he did good. He is inarguably less “embarrassing” than Mr. Moore to the polite circles frequented by Mr. Strange, whose sister-in-law, Murray Johnston, a vocally anti-Trump quilt artist with whom I grew up in Birmingham, is working enthusiastically to elect Mr. Jones.

Not long ago, the path of progress seemed inevitable. At the time of the church bombing, after which the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. told Wallace that “the blood of our little children is on your hands,” the governor seemed to be the toxic tribune of a fading order. That arc of the universe seemed on track 23 years later when Alabama’s Democratic senator Howell Heflin, Mr. Jones’s old boss, cast the decisive vote against a federal judgeship for Jeff Sessions. In 1986, Mr. Sessions was considered beyond the moral pale.

Now Mr. Sessions is the attorney general, having vacated Mr. Heflin’s old Senate seat (the same one Mr. Moore and Mr. Jones hope to fill), and his zealous nativism set the scene for a winning presidential campaign. Donald Trump has upended the reconciliation script, recasting white nationalists as the victims — of an elite that includes an Ayn Rand-reading Republican House speaker as well as an arugula-eating black Democrat.

Defiance is now an epidemic as pervasive as opioids, and Alabama has transformed from backwoods to bellwether. While the press plays the defeat of Mr. Trump’s tepidly endorsed candidate as a debate over the prestige of his coattails, the president has swung the sacred trust of his office, the legacy of Lincoln, behind a candidate whose very existence confirms a republic in peril.


Meanwhile, Doug Jones studiously rejects the pressures of destiny, sticking to “kitchen-table issues” and staking his hopes on the voters’ “strong streak of independence” and a sense that “the health care debate has changed some dynamics down here.” After all, to this red state the most important tide of history is crimson.

The reddish text is actually crimson (hex code #DC143C).
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#7484 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2017-October-01, 15:25

View PostRedSpawn, on 2017-September-30, 15:34, said:

Here is the priceless video of Tom Price on CNBC saying that the charter jets should not be used by government officials. Hypocrisy at its finest.

I only watched the beginning, not all the way through. But wasn't that about the government purchasing private jets? Did he also talk about using charters later?

#7485 User is offline   RedSpawn 

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Posted 2017-October-01, 19:13

View PostWinstonm, on 2017-October-01, 10:03, said:

How a real American hero deals with racism:

https://www.buzzfeed...vMDl#.qkY29NlEM

Quote

In a now-deleted Facebook post, the mother of one of the cadets who was targeted shared a photo of her son's whiteboard with the racial slur written.

Her post read:

This is why I'm so hurt! Someone left this disgusting message on my sons door at the Airforce Academy in Colorado! I'm angry that people are teaching their children such hate. These young people are supposed to bond and protect each other and the country. Who would my son have to watch out for? The enemy or the enemy? I know this is hard to see but it's the reality my family and the country is dealing with. We cannot tolerate such hatred! Keep your head up son!
In another Facebook post, the cadet's father wrote, "My son is not playing a victim...The real victim is the person raised with that kind of hate."

It's dangerous when racism and tribalism erodes the fiber of our nationalism. How can a military member hate another serving member because of his race and then serve his duty to protect his fellow man?
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#7486 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2017-October-01, 19:43

View PostWinstonm, on 2017-October-01, 11:43, said:

IMO, another consideration is that when TNC says or writes "white supremacy" I think he is talking about that state which we would call "white privilege" rather than white supremacy, as WS makes us think of neo-nazis, skinheads, and KKK, certainly not of ourselves.

But it is just that group of white voters - non-skinheads, non-neo-nazis, and non-KKK, who cannot and do not see themselves as racist but surely are - who propelled Trump into the wh.


I do not fuss too much about exact phrasing as long as the general meaning is clear. I would not call the man a master of clear speaking but I sort of follow him.

Here is something from the Washington Post

https://www.washingt...m=.1d343f72447c

I liked the WaPo piece, i liked it a lot in fact. As an amusement on the side, I found the writing of the football playing author far superior in clarity to anything I have heard or read from the guy who is often described as a leading black intellectual. Nobody has to explain to me that when this author says such and such he really means that and that. He means what he says, as near as I can tell.
Ken
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#7487 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2017-October-01, 21:09

View Postkenberg, on 2017-October-01, 19:43, said:

I do not fuss too much about exact phrasing as long as the general meaning is clear. I would not call the man a master of clear speaking but I sort of follow him.

Here is something from the Washington Post

https://www.washingt...m=.1d343f72447c

I liked the WaPo piece, i liked it a lot in fact. As an amusement on the side, I found the writing of the football playing author far superior in clarity to anything I have heard or read from the guy who is often described as a leading black intellectual. Nobody has to explain to me that when this author says such and such he really means that and that. He means what he says, as near as I can tell.


To me this guy is simply explaining a view that doesn't contradict Coates's claims - IMHO.
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#7488 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2017-October-03, 17:25

From Kennedy’s Vote Is in Play on Voting Maps Warped by Politics by Adam Liptak and Michael D. Shear:

Quote

WASHINGTON — Justice Anthony M. Kennedy has long been troubled by extreme partisan gerrymandering, where the party in power draws voting districts to give itself a lopsided advantage in elections. But he has never found a satisfactory way to determine when voting maps are so warped by politics that they cross a constitutional line.

After spirited Supreme Court arguments on Tuesday, there was reason to think Justice Kennedy may be ready to join the court’s more liberal members in a groundbreaking decision that could reshape American democracy by letting courts determine when lawmakers have gone too far.

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#7489 User is offline   RedSpawn 

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Posted 2017-October-04, 15:22

http://www.foxnews.c...m-response.html

Why in the world would Trump say that Puerto Rico has cost the U.S. budget a lot of money, but it's ok because we saved lives?

When U.S. citizens (survivors of Hurricane Maria) are struggling to find food, potable water, ELECTRICITY, and rationed gas, the last thing they want to be called is a financial burden to Uncle Sam.

I wish Trump could buy compassion on amazon.com because the optics of this Presidential visit is just unprofessional and too ugly. He sounds so out of touch.
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#7490 User is offline   jjbrr 

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Posted 2017-October-04, 15:40

View PostRedSpawn, on 2017-October-04, 15:22, said:

Why in the world would Trump say...


Because he's an F'in moron, according to sources close to the situation.
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#7491 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2017-October-04, 19:37

RBG 1, Gorsuch 0

Quote

Toward the end of the Supreme Court’s argument in Gill v. Whitford, about the future of partisan gerrymandering, there was a revealing moment about the place of the newest Justice in the esteem of at least one of his peers. In less than a year, Neil Gorsuch has dominated oral arguments, lectured his colleagues, and given dubiously appropriate public speeches. Questioning Paul Smith, the lawyer challenging Wisconsin’s contorted district lines, Gorsuch made another pedantic gesture.

The argument had gone on for nearly an hour when Gorsuch began a question as follows: “Maybe we can just for a second talk about the arcane matter of the Constitution.” There was a rich subtext to this query. Originalists and textualists such as Gorsuch, and his predecessor on the Court, Antonin Scalia, often criticize their colleagues for inventing rights that are not found in the nation’s founding document. Gorsuch’s statement that the Court should spare “a second” for the “arcane” subject of the document was thus a slap at his ideological adversaries; of course, they, too, believe that they are interpreting the Constitution, but, in Gorsuch’s view, only he cares about the document itself.

Gorsuch went on to give his colleagues a civics lecture about the text of the Constitution. “And where exactly do we get authority to revise state legislative lines? When the Constitution authorizes the federal government to step in on state legislative matters, it’s pretty clear—if you look at the Fifteenth Amendment, you look at the Nineteenth Amendment, the Twenty-sixth Amendment, and even the Fourteenth Amendment, Section 2.” In other words, Gorsuch was saying, why should the Court involve itself in the subject of redistricting at all—didn’t the Constitution fail to give the Court the authority to do so?

Ruth Bader Ginsburg, who is bent with age, can sometimes look disengaged or even sleepy during arguments, and she had that droopy look today as well. But, in this moment, she heard Gorsuch very clearly, and she didn’t even raise her head before offering a brisk and convincing dismissal. In her still Brooklyn-flecked drawl, she grumbled, “Where did ‘one person, one vote’ come from?” There might have been an audible woo that echoed through the courtroom. (Ginsburg’s comment seemed to silence Gorsuch for the rest of the arguments.)

In one cutting remark, Ginsburg summed up how Gorsuch’s patronizing lecture omitted some of the Court’s most important precedents, and Smith gratefully followed up on it: “That’s what Reynolds v. Sims and Baker v. Carr did, and a number of other cases that have followed along since.” In these cases, from the early nineteen-sixties, the Court established that the Justices, via the First and Fourteenth Amendments, very much had the right to tell states how to run their elections.

In short, Ginsburg was saying to Gorsuch that he and his allies might control the future of the Supreme Court, but she wasn’t going to let them rewrite the history of it—at least not without a fight.

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#7492 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2017-October-05, 07:04

View PostRedSpawn, on 2017-October-04, 15:22, said:

http://www.foxnews.c...m-response.html

Why in the world would Trump say that Puerto Rico has cost the U.S. budget a lot of money, but it's ok because we saved lives?

When U.S. citizens (survivors of Hurricane Maria) are struggling to find food, potable water, ELECTRICITY, and rationed gas, the last thing they want to be called is a financial burden to Uncle Sam.

I wish Trump could buy compassion on amazon.com because the optics of this Presidential visit is just unprofessional and too ugly. He sounds so out of touch.


I expected Trump to be bad, and he has been bad. But even I did not expect that even when he is, I think, trying to say something positive and helpful he apparently is unable to do it. There seems to be a part missing.
Ken
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#7493 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2017-October-05, 09:00

View PostRedSpawn, on 2017-October-04, 15:22, said:

Why in the world would Trump say that Puerto Rico has cost the U.S. budget a lot of money, but it's ok because we saved lives?

I think he was trying to make a joke about it, to suggest that we don't mind breaking the bank to help them out. But it just didn't work for at least two reasons: 1) it was the wrong time and place for joking, and 2) everything that comes out of his mouth sounds smarmy. Maybe he even thought he was being sarcastic last week when he tweeted that PR expects everything to be done for them. But I don't really think so.

But with that in mind, it's possible to recast many of his outrageous comments, like the one about Mexican illegal immigrants being rapists, murderers, etc. "but some of them are good people". Or his speeches after Charlottesville.

#7494 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-October-05, 15:02

I see it a little differently. I think most of what Trump says makes sense if you put it in the context that he is always talking to his vote base regardless of who is actually in front of him. So he was reassuring right wing Americans that this was not really money wasted on non-Americans and that he is still putting them first. I am not sure he worries or even cares too much about what Puerto Ricans think.
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#7495 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2017-October-06, 09:43

View PostZelandakh, on 2017-October-05, 15:02, said:

I see it a little differently. I think most of what Trump says makes sense if you put it in the context that he is always talking to his vote base regardless of who is actually in front of him. So he was reassuring right wing Americans that this was not really money wasted on non-Americans and that he is still putting them first. I am not sure he worries or even cares too much about what Puerto Ricans think.

How does "You've thrown our budget a little out of whack" indicate that he's putting his base first? He's saying that he's going to spend enormous money to help PR.

And later he told a reporter that he's going to wipe out PR's debt. The director of the OMB tried to spin it later, which makes sense since the President doesn't actually have the power to wipe out the territory's debt. Nevertheless, the prices of the bonds dropped significantly when Trump said that (why would anyone want to hold on to a bond that's not going to be repaid?).

#7496 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2017-October-06, 11:14

Quote

NEW YORK ― President Donald Trump’s administration issued a new rule Friday that allows all employers to opt out of including birth control in their health insurance plans for any moral or religious reason, rolling back the Obama-era requirement that guaranteed contraception coverage at no cost to 62 million women.


Can there be any denial that Trump's agenda is nothing but a spiteful dismantling of anything accomplished by President Obama because Obama had the temerity to ridicule Trump in public? It fits in with the psychological profile of Trump as attested to by the numerous psychiatrists willing to go on record that Trump's psychology is dangerous to the public. https://www.psycholo...se-donald-trump
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#7497 User is offline   Al_U_Card 

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Posted 2017-October-06, 15:05

View PostWinstonm, on 2017-October-06, 11:14, said:

Can there be any denial that Trump's agenda is nothing but a spiteful dismantling of anything accomplished by President Obama because had Obama had the temerity to ridicule Trump in public? It fits in with the psychological profile of Trump as attested to by the numerous psychiatrists willing to go on record that Trump's psychology is dangerous to the public. https://www.psycholo...se-donald-trump

Does presenting an opposition have to be spiteful? Since one's position/opinion/actions should be the best for their own benefit, someone else presenting what is best for themselves requires spite? Is it not potentially just narrow-minded to believe that one's own position/opinion/action are the "best" for all concerned?...
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#7498 User is offline   jjbrr 

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Posted 2017-October-06, 16:52

nice troll, alucard.
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#7499 User is offline   jjbrr 

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Posted 2017-October-06, 17:03

Thank you to the LGBT community! I will fight for you while Hillary brings in more people that will threaten your freedoms and beliefs. 12:31 PM - 14 Jun 2016

"Don't take vacations. What's the point? If you're not enjoying your work, you're in the wrong job." -- Think Like A Billionaire - 11:28 am - 19 Nov 2012

We need a President who isn't a laughing stock to the entire World. We need a truly great leader, a genius at strategy and winning. Respect! ~ 12:30 AM - 9 Aug 2014

"Is President Obama going to finally mention the words radical Islamic terrorism? If he doesn't he should immediately resign in disgrace!" 10:58 AM - 12 Jun 2016

Michelle Obama's weekend ski trip to Aspen makes it 16 times that Obamas have gone on vacation in 3 years. Insensitive. @BarackObama 10:57 AM - 21 Feb 2012

"We pay for Obama's travel so he can fundraise millions so Democrats can run on lies. Then we pay for his golf." Oct 14, 2014 02:35:27 PM

Hillary Clinton doesn't have the strength or stamina to be president. Jeb Bush is a low energy individual, but Hillary is not much better! (Jan 2 2016)

President Obama should have gone to Louisiana days ago, instead of golfing. Too little, too late! - 9:15 AM - 23 Aug 2016

Are you allowed to impeach a President for gross incompetence? (June 4, 2014)

Peaceful protests are a hallmark of our democracy. Even if I don't always agree, I recognize the rights of people to express their views. (5:23 PM - 22 Jan 2017)

"It's almost like the United States has no President - we are a rudderless ship heading for a major disaster. Good luck everyone!" (2:41 AM - 20 Mar 2014)

Crooked Hillary Clinton and her team "were extremely careless in their handling of very sensitive, highly classified information." Not fit! -- 4:12 AM - 6 Jul 2016

President Obama's approval rating, at 38%, is at an all-time low. Gee, I wonder why? (Dec 11 2013)

"Obama is, without question, the WORST EVER president. I predict he will now do something really bad and totally stupid to show manhood!" - 6:07 PM - 5 June 2014

Hillary's staff thought her email scandal might just blow over. Who would trust these people with national security? October 16, 2016, 12:07 pm

Be prepared, there is a small chance that our horrendous leadership could unknowingly lead us into World War III. (2:46 AM - 31 Aug 2013)

Just as I predicted, @BarackObama has not allowed an independent investigation into the national security leaks from his cabinet. -- 1:24 PM - 27 Jul 2012

Dopey Prince @Alwaleed_Talal wants to control our U.S. politicians with daddy’s money. Can’t do it when I get elected. #Trump2016 - 11 December 2015

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Alucard? Care to explain?
OK
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#7500 User is offline   Al_U_Card 

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Posted 2017-October-06, 18:21

View Postjjbrr, on 2017-October-06, 16:52, said:

nice troll, alucard.

Goooooooooooooollllllll!!!!!! My point couldn't possibly be relevent, could it? That would destroy the groupthink narrative.
The Grand Design, reflected in the face of Chaos...it's a fluke!
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