[Winstonm]

 mikeh, on 2016-December-05, 11:06, said:

Leaving the previous issues to one side, is anyone else here as frightened about China as I am?

Trump's pre-arranged call from the President of Taiwan might have been a calculated poke in the eye at China, altho given that he has taken similar calls from some very unusual, and unsavoury, people in the last few weeks it seems to me likely to have been approved by Trump out of ignorance.

China, predictably, issued a Formal Note...a tool of diplomacy usually addressed by a diplomatic message. Typically that message would have admitted to no wrongdoing, but would have stressed that the US sees China as a valuable player on the international scene.

Instead, Trump unleashes a twitter rant!

I very much doubt that he has any insight into how others, let alone the type of person who has been able to prevail in the intensely competitive environment of Chinese politics, actually think. This is a man who has, many times, boasted that the most important approach to business is that if anyone does you wrong (in your mind), you go back and do worse to him..far worse...you destroy your opponent who did you wrong.

He refuses to attend intelligence briefings, apparently preferring to watch and tweet about SNL. He seems to have never had any interest in history or indeed any subject other than Donald Trump.

WWI came about by mischance, as a result of the interplay of certain individuals, a combination of circumstance, and an inability to communicate. I have read several histories of WWI, and of the era laading up to it, including (most recently) The War that ended Peace.

Trump's apparent inability to understand the problems that the Chinese leaders have, and the difficulty I expect the Chinese leadership to have understanding Trump, create a potential for a horrific misunderstanding over Taiwan.

While I would not expect this to happen, it seems to me that the more Trump pushes China, the more likely it is that China will start to sabre-rattle over Taiwan, and Trump's self-image won't let him back down, at least not when he sees himself as Commander in Chief of the strongest military in the world.

Remember, this is a man who knows war better than his generals, and spurns briefings and won't allow the State Department to help him communicate with foreign leaders.

This is a man who is so ignorant that in conversation with the English PM, he invited her to 'drop by' should she ever 'be in town'. He priised the Phillipino President for his death squad/mass murder approach to fighting drugs, he praised the dictator of Kazhstan in a recent phone call, he admires Hussein, respects the North Korean dictator as a strong man (for murdering his uncle on ascension to power), and slavers over Putin.

Now he is having a pissing contest with China, and should the Chinese fail to learn, quickly, how to manipulate him, we could end up very close to the brink.

Not so much fearful of China but fearful of Trump's narcissism, i.e., extreme neediness for adulation.

[diana_eva]

 mikeh, on 2016-December-05, 13:32, said:

I do stand somewhat corrected in that I now understand that google will tailor its results to accord with what its computations suggest the searcher wants to see, which is regrettable.

This.

I suppose the algorithms used by google, FB and other media were meant to help user find what they need faster. But within the past few years they helped spread fake news to the point that even the smartest people get lost and can't figure out what is true and what not. When your top 10 results on google consistently reinforce what you've heard, however unlikely, and FB constantly shows you similar "breaking!" stories it's not that difficult to understand why things have gotten where they are now. Even if you try to fact check, you don't know how, where to start, what to trust.

Right now my search results are quite decent. It;'s probably because google did make some efforts to clean up the obvious garbage. But a few months ago all my top results were sheer idiocy, based probably on number of clicks and views and nobody eyeballing the actual content.

[awm]

BTW: If you open an incognito window on Chrome, you should be able to see the default google search results (without anything personalized to your browsing history).

[jonottawa]

 jonottawa, on 2016-December-04, 12:08, said:

Daughter of top EU official raped and murdered in Germany - Afghan migrant admits killing

Tragic!

 1eyedjack, on 2016-December-04, 12:31, said:

Just curious, but what has this to do with U S Democracy being Trumped?

Update: I since posted that (without any editorial comment/headline, just the girl's name, a photo, and a link (exactly like I did with Gwen Ifill, except with a significantly smaller photo)) where it should have been posted, in RIP, and my post there was deleted.

[y66]

 PassedOut, on 2016-December-05, 10:56, said:

This reminds me of something that happened back in 2008 while I was still volunteering at our local elections. We had a couple of meetings with the democrats and republicans together to make sure we were all on the same page regarding poll workers from both parties at each precinct, and so on.

After the first of these, I noticed the democrat organizer, a nice young woman, looking uncomfortable in conversation with a very intense middle-aged man, so I walked over to join them. It seems that he was one of her volunteers for making phone calls and going door-to-door, but he had this video tape that he thought proved that 9/11 was an inside job and was pressuring her to take it. I could see that she didn't want to take it but didn't want offend him, so I piped up and offered to take it, view it, and discuss it with him after the next meeting. He was happy and she was happy.

When I got home I got Constance and put the tape on. As you'd expect, it was a sleaze job put out to take money from suckers. A narrator with a deep, somber voice went on and on, pushing absolute foolishness. One of the pieces of "evidence" offered was that the hole in the pentagon was the wrong shape for being hit by a plane, but the right shape for being hit by a missile. The government was covering up the missile attack.

After the next meeting, I handed the guy back the tape and he asked what I thought. I chuckled and asked him what he thought had happened to the plane, if it didn't hit the pentagon. He lowered his voice, looked around, and said, "You tell me!"

When I told him, "It hit the pentagon," he looked disgusted, raised his arms, and walked away.

It doesn't surprise me to find odd people now and then, but I'm starting to be surprised by the sheer number of them. It's sobering.

It used to be harder for these guys to form a critical mass. Now they just have to wander into the wrong bridge forum and start tweeting.

[helene_t]

I am more afraid of the West than I am of China.

China has almost zero history of committing genocide abroad. OK, Tibetanians and Uygurs may disagree, and Korea and Vietnam also has something to complain about. And they have recently been playing with the muscles in the South China Sea. But this is all peanuts compared to Europe/USA which has had the policy of destroying everything that comes in our way, from the bronze age collapse to Aleppo.

The Chinese are about to kick us out of Africa and Latin America, even Afghanistan. That's ok. They probably won't take Taiwan by force but even if they do, it doesn't need to tricker WWIII as it is not against anyone's interests other than the Taiwanese. Of course Trump might nuke Beijing but then again, Trump might nuke anything for any reason or no reason.

[jonottawa]

Trump picks Ben Carson to be HUD secretary

Another great pick by President Trump!

[jonottawa]

 hrothgar, on 2016-December-05, 07:51, said:

Kaitlyn, the expression "Alt Right" is a politically correct way to say "Neo - Nazi".

Apologies if I've posted this video already, but I don't believe I have.



I think it's fair to say that a typical member of the Alt Right in America is very much like a typical Zionist Likud party member in Israel. They love their country. They want to protect their culture. They oppose significant immigration of people who aren't like them because they don't want their children and grandchildren to be dispossessed or to be a 'minority in their own country' (with all that entails.) And they BOTH would strenuously (& justifiably) oppose being described as 'neo-Nazi.'

If you don't like that analogy, maybe consider that the (overwhelmingly patriotic) American GI's who actually liberated Europe from the Nazis would almost all be considered Alt Right. It's basically the centuries old traditional belief that you stand for your land, your faith/culture and your kin (NNITO.) Only late-20th & early 21st century propaganda (& the pervasive infiltration of Cultural Marxism/Globalism into virtually all universities) has made it seem extreme to some.

As even old NeverTrumper George Will reminds us:



Y'all need to stop pounding the table. And if I ignore your tantrums, that just means I don't (often) give attention to people who don't know how to behave. It doesn't say anything about what I believe or don't believe.

[jonottawa]

Speaking of 'fake news': Hillary Clinton so far ahead in polls that she 'doesn't even think about' Donald Trump anymore Just 15 days before the election.

Good times. Is this the best election ever, or what?

[cherdano]

 nige1, on 2016-December-05, 12:10, said:

Rather than making a consistent effort to refute the arguments of Jonottowa and Kaitlyn, the usual gang is abusing them and imputing opinions to them that they haven't expressed. The victims would be hypocrites and masochists to "fit in" with that torrent of insolence.

Nige1, I understand you have some sort of issues with many of the regular BBF posters. But why post non-sense like this?

Did you actually read the thread? Pretty much anytime someone engaged jonottawa on an issue, our little neo-nazi responded by just ignoring the issue. The last time I did this was on alleged large-scale voter fraud by undocumented immigrants in the US. I pointed out that this would be extremely irrational behaviour by them, and quite contrary to the normal mindset of anyone in their position. I also pointed out that declaring, without any shred of evidence, that a large population of immigrants behaved in a highly malicious and completely irrational way is basically the definition of being prejudiced. I gave him several prompts as an opportunity to retract his baseless accusation.

He stood by his crap. That's the definition of a racist - his irrational bias against undocumented immigrants is so strong that he can't even retract the most baseless and irrational accusation against them.

But of course, nige1 comes to the defence of the racist, as long as the racist is against the "usual gang" on BBF.

[Al_U_Card]

 mikeh, on 2016-December-05, 13:32, said:

I do stand somewhat corrected in that I now understand that google will tailor its results to accord with what its computations suggest the searcher wants to see, which is regrettable.

You might also wish to revise your opinion about "97% of scientists believe that climate change is "real" (man-made and dangerous)" when the only real polling of involved scientists (AGU) revealed that about 53% accept that man has SOME effect on global temperatures but that this effect is hard to define and quantify. (and IMPOSSIBLE to predict as per the IPCC)

Just in case.

[PassedOut]

At a D.C. pizzeria, the dangers of fake news just got all too real

Quote

The fake news stuff we’ve been talking about?

That all just got real.

An entire D.C. neighborhood was on lockdown Sunday because some dope with a gun believed a fake news story that wildly and wrongly linked a neighborhood pizzeria to a child sex ring.

You could conclude that Edgar Maddison Welch, the 28-year-old man from North Carolina who allegedly walked into the Comet Ping Pong restaurant carrying an assault rifle, pointed it at an employee and then fired one or more shots, may be a singular nut job.

He told police he had come to the restaurant to “self-investigate” a false election-related conspiracy theory that linked Hillary Clinton to the child sex ring.

But he wasn’t the only dope who was roped into this.

A week before the presidential election, the son of retired Lt. Gen. Michael Flynn — the man President-elect Donald Trump has chosen as his national security adviser — shared the Comet Ping Pong conspiracy story.

Thousands of others shared it, too.

Days later, the retired general himself tweeted a hashtag referring to another fake news story that accused Clinton’s campaign chairman, John Podesta, of satanic rituals using bodily fluids.

Jon might claim again that these people are just Clinton supporters trying to make Trump look bad, but no. They are nut jobs swimming in the cesspool with Jon and the Donald, and some of them are running around with guns.

[mikeh]

 helene_t, on 2016-December-05, 14:43, said:

I am more afraid of the West than I am of China.

China has almost zero history of committing genocide abroad. OK, Tibetanians and Uygurs may disagree, and Korea and Vietnam also has something to complain about. And they have recently been playing with the muscles in the South China Sea. But this is all peanuts compared to Europe/USA which has had the policy of destroying everything that comes in our way, from Alexander the Great to Aleppo.

The Chinese are about to kick us out of Africa and Latin America, even Afghanistan. That's ok. They probably won't take Taiwan by force but even if they do, it doesn't need to tricker WWIII as it is not against anyone's interests other than the Taiwanese. Of course Trump might nuke Beijing but then again, Trump might nuke anything for any reason or no reason.

Oh, I agree.....it isn't China, as such, that terrifies me, and when I said that it did, what I meant to convey was that Trump's attitude and conduct towards China is what terrifies me, along with my concern that the Chinese leadership may not understand just how dangerous, in the sense of irrational, he is and may get us into conflict by miscalculating his reactions.

It is dangerous to generalize, and my experiences with a small number of immigrants from China, involved in car accident claims here in Canada, is a weak foundation for discussing how Chinese leaders will react. However, my experience has been that most Chinese injury victims are extremely reluctant to admit to any psychological harm or condition, and see admissions of mental weakness as unacceptable. In addition, there are very few Chinese psychologists in our Province and I know of even fewer Chinese psychiatrists: far fewer proportionately than the percentage of residents who are of Chinese ethnicity. Which is by way of saying that I fear that personality disorders such as that from which I (and many more qualified people than I) think Trump has will be beyond the comprehension of the Chinese leaders.

They have issues of national pride and personal face, and there will be hawks and doves in their system, or so I assume, and it would be easy to see them ratcheting up the tension over Taiwan, sure that Trump would not go the next step...until he does. That's why I referenced the possibility that they may learn to manipulate him, the way Putin and others have.

They will, if they are smart, invite him to build Trump Towers in major cities, and golf courses with his name on it..if they do that while praising him, he'll sell out Taiwan in a heartbeat. And of course once they can tie his wealth into the Chinese economy, he'll roll over on everything they want.

So I hope they learn to use corruption against him, and not threaten him with force. Never threaten a bully who has an obedient, gun-carrying friend over his right shoulder. He won't fight you but he will tell his friend to do so, and that friend has nuclear arms.

[hrothgar]

 mikeh, on 2016-December-05, 18:52, said:

They will, if they are smart, invite him to build Trump Towers in major cities, and golf courses with his name on it..if they do that while praising him, he'll sell out Taiwan in a heartbeat. And of course once they can tie his wealth into the Chinese economy, he'll roll over on everything they want.

Or just buy up his debt...

[kenberg]

 PassedOut, on 2016-December-05, 17:52, said:

At a D.C. pizzeria, the dangers of fake news just got all too real


Jon might claim again that these people are just Clinton supporters trying to make Trump look bad, but no. They are nut jobs swimming in the cesspool with Jon and the Donald, and some of them are running around with guns.

I saw this article today. This fake news stuff is frightening. But also someone is supposed to tell this nut that even if the news were not fake he doesn't get to come into the restaurant and start shooting.

I withdraw what I had said about Flynn, I had not read carefully.

"A week before the presidential election, the son of retired Lt. Gen. Michael Flynn — the man President-elect Donald Trump has chosen as his national security adviser — shared the Comet Ping Pong conspiracy story."

It's his son. I had missed that. A man is not responsible for what his son thinks or says. Jimmy Carter's brother was an an embarrassment. I never held Jimmy Carter responsible.

[nige1]

 cherdano, on 2016-December-05, 16:13, said:

Nige1, I understand you have some sort of issues with many of the regular BBF posters. But why post non-sense like this?

Did you actually read the thread? Pretty much anytime someone engaged jonottawa on an issue, our little neo-nazi responded by just ignoring the issue. The last time I did this was on alleged large-scale voter fraud by undocumented immigrants in the US. I pointed out that this would be extremely irrational behaviour by them, and quite contrary to the normal mindset of anyone in their position. I also pointed out that declaring, without any shred of evidence, that a large population of immigrants behaved in a highly malicious and completely irrational way is basically the definition of being prejudiced. I gave him several prompts as an opportunity to retract his baseless accusation.

He stood by his crap. That's the definition of a racist - his irrational bias against undocumented immigrants is so strong that he can't even retract the most baseless and irrational accusation against them.

But of course, nige1 comes to the defence of the racist, as long as the racist is against the "usual gang" on BBF.

Et tu Brute

Few read all BBO threads and I don't defend the opinions of JonOttowa or Kaitlyn. For example, Cherdano's argument against the likelihood of appreciable immigrant voter-fraud persuades me.

It's fair to question facts and refute arguments. In the context of friendly intellectual debate, however, I feel it's wrong to label (libel) fellow BBO-members as stupid Nazi liars or worse. We all make mistakes and some of us cling to irrational beliefs. However, Jonottowa and Kaitlyn aren't stupid. Nor are they liars. I doubt Cherdano really believes that they are. For instance, to deliberately deceive educated BBO members with statements that you know are untrue seems an unlikely tactic. Perhaps, some of their cartoons are intended as humour

IMO, vituperation detracts from rational debate -- polarising opinion and hardening prejudice.

[y66]

 nige1, on 2016-December-05, 19:52, said:

For instance, to deliberately deceive educated BBO members with statements that you know are untrue seems an unlikely tactic. Perhaps, some of their cartoons are intended as humour

IMO, vituperation detracts from rational debate -- polarising opinion and hardening prejudice.

No doubt the polarizing effect you mention is real and the intent is not to deceive. What's your theory for why smart people post fake news here in the water cooler -- of all places! -- and how does this square with your assertion that there is any interest in having a rational debate?

[y66]

Guest post from Trevor Noah:

Quote

When I took over “The Daily Show” from Jon Stewart in 2015, I was surprised to learn that my job as a late-night comedy host was not merely to entertain but to eviscerate — to attack, crush, demolish and destroy the opponents of liberal, progressive America. Very quickly, people from some quarters — mostly those same liberal progressives — criticized me for not maintaining the minimum acceptable levels of daily evisceration that were established by my predecessor.

The truth is that Jon never liked being labeled the Great Eviscerator. He didn’t think it was healthy, and he always tried to think about the details of issues with a healthy dose of skepticism before going on air and putting his ideas out into the world. But through the lens of the internet, that’s not what people saw. In the early days of the blogosphere and YouTube and social media, people took Jon’s most strident commentary and made it go viral with clickbait headlines, blowing those segments way out of proportion, compared with the more thoughtful segments that made up most of the television show. And, unfortunately, when we look back today, the evisceration (and exasperation) is what most people remember.

The experience of stepping into Jon’s shoes brought on enormous culture shock for me. In South Africa, where I come from, we also use comedy to critique and analyze, and while we don’t let our politicians off the hook, we don’t eviscerate one another. If anything, my stand-up shows back home are a place where we can push away the history of apartheid’s color classifications — where black, white, colored and Indian people use laughter to deal with shared trauma and pain. In South Africa, comedy brings us together. In America, it pulls us apart.

I grew up under the harsh racial oppression of apartheid as a person of mixed ethnicity. The lines between black and white were clearly drawn and enforced with guns and tanks, but because I am neither black nor white, I was forced to live between those lines. I was forced to communicate across those lines. I was forced to learn how to approach people, and problems, with nuance. If I hadn’t, I wouldn’t have survived.
America, I’ve found, doesn’t like nuance. Either black people are criminals, or cops are racist — pick one. It’s us versus them. You’re with us, or you’re against us. This national mentality is fueled by the hysteria of a 24-hour news cycle, by the ideological silos of social media and by the structure of the country’s politics. The two-party system seems to actively encourage division where none needs to exist.

This has never been more apparent than during Donald J. Trump’s campaign for the presidency. With his flagrant misogyny and racist appeals to fearful voters, Mr. Trump succeeded in dividing an electorate already primed to turn against itself. His embittering candidacy obscured the fact that the vast majority of Americans, both Republican and Democrat, wanted many of the same things: good jobs, decent homes, access to opportunity and, above all, respect.

The past year has been so polarizing and noxious that even I find myself getting caught up in the extreme grandstanding and vitriol. But with extremes come deadlock and the death of progress. Instead of speaking in measured tones about what unites us, we are screaming at each other about what divides us — which is exactly what authoritarian figures like Mr. Trump want: Divided people are easier to rule. That was, after all, the whole point of apartheid.

To the extremists and true believers of any cause, there is an idea that moderation and compromise are simply a prelude to selling out and giving up, when in fact the opposite is true — moderation brings radical ideas to the center to make them possible. Nelson Mandela never wavered in his demand for “one man, one vote”; indeed, he endured 27 years in prison to make that notion a reality. But when our nation stood on the brink of civil war, Mr. Mandela spoke to white South Africans in a language that soothed their fears and reassured them that they would have a place in our new country. He spoke to militant black nationalists in a way that calmed their tempers but did not diminish their pride. If Mr. Mandela’s efforts had failed, South Africa’s peaceful transition to democracy would never have come to pass.

Sadly, given what we’ve seen in this election, Mr. Trump’s victory has only amplified the voices of extremism. It has made their arguments more simplistic and more emotional at a time when they ought to be growing more subtle and more complex. We should give no quarter to intolerance and injustice in this world, but we can be steadfast on the subject of Mr. Trump’s unfitness for office while still reaching out to reason with his supporters. We can be unwavering in our commitment to racial equality while still breaking bread with the same racist people who’ve oppressed us. I know it can be done because I had no choice but to do it, and it is the reason I am where I am today.

When you grow up in the middle, you see that life is more in the middle than it is on the sides. The majority of people are in the middle, the margin of victory is almost always in the middle, and very often the truth is there as well, waiting for us.

Born in South Africa to an interracial couple at a time when such relationships were illegal under apartheid, Trevor Noah weaves observations about race and ethnicity into his comedy. He has hosted various television shows in South Africa, including “Tonight with Trevor Noah,” and is currently host of “The Daily Show,” based in New York City.

[Winstonm]

Considering the question of fake news and right wing sources, I come to the conclusion that the modern iteration of the right wing can only be called ruthless, from fanning the flames of doubt about cancer and tobacco to doubt over climate change to spreading fake and malicious news and rumors they continually display a ruthless disregard for the welfare of people, instead placing political beliefs ahead of lives. This type of ruthlessness - the win at any and all costs type - can only stem from a total conviction of the rightness of the cause being fought for. The only place I have seen this type of certainty is in religions. We are no longer dealing with political opponents but political zealots, driven by their religious-like fervor to convert the sinner or burn him at the stake.

This places progressives automatically at a disadvantage, as the basis for progressive thought is mental flexibility. Ruthless progressive is an oxymoron.

I do not urge progressives adopt the same ruthless tactics - it can't be done - but it is important to understand the nature of the adversary, and in this case the adversary is not someone willing to compromise but someone who will do whatever it takes to win - and therefore, the only thing for progressives to understand is they must not try to compromise but instead strive to be in position to dictate terms.

I do not think this group represents the Republican Party. I do think the Republican Party has placed itself in the hopeless position of being hijacked by this minority and hopeless to untangle themselves from the snare.

[nige1]

 y66, on 2016-December-05, 20:55, said:

No doubt the polarizing effect you mention is real and the intent is not to deceive. What's your theory for why smart people post fake news here in the water cooler -- of all places! -- and how does this square with your assertion that there is any interest in having a rational debate?

US politics is weird and hard to understand. From a UK perspective, Republicans and Democrats are both hard-right.

Other "News" from the Western Ministry of Truth continues to defy belief e.g. about Middle-East conflicts. Perhaps people just like to read what they want to believe. I disagree with Diana_Eva about personal attacks on forum-members but I feel that she is right that we shouldn't shy away from moral judgements in a political context y66 also seems right about diminishing interest in rational debate