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Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? Bernie Sanders wants to know who owns America?

#21421 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2024-April-22, 14:39

So have we all finally gotten tired of talking about Trump? The thread was idle over 3 weeks, and then only 1 post with no responses.

#21422 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2024-April-22, 19:01

View Postbarmar, on 2024-April-22, 14:39, said:

So have we all finally gotten tired of talking about Trump? The thread was idle over 3 weeks, and then only 1 post with no responses.


My two daughters and one son-in-law came over for a while yesterday and we did talk a little about Trump. Not all that much. We all agree, and we all know that we all agree, so what''s to say? I think that's a bit of what's going on with the Trump thread here.

It could be a little interesting to speculate on just why Mike Johnson chose to bring this to a vote, defying some in his party. One thought: Before he was Speaker, he could shoot off his mouth and who cares. But now? He has power. He could bring it (the funding bills) to a vote, he could keep it from coming to a vote. I often fall into unjustified optimism, but perhaps he thought about whehter he really wanted to be the person who kept needed funding from happening. I have various regretd in my life but, for me, using my power to keep needed funding from happening would be a major regret to live with forever.

Hopiing that a politician, any politician, decides to do what is right simply because it is right is naive, I get that. One can hope.
Ken
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#21423 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2024-April-22, 20:43

Perhaps we can term this the "fish and chip wrapper syndrome".

People are mainly anxious about things that affect them directly and since Trump is no longer a direct existential threat people don't like to discuss it.
Strangely, there seems to be a growing perception that Trump wasn't that bad (the "after all Mussolini did get the trains running on time" fallacy).

I've just been reading Michael Lewis' book "The fifth risk".

It seems that we were only saved from the worst of Trump because he was unprepared and incompetent.
Next time would be much worse.

A person, born in 2004, was 12 years old when Trump was elected.
Watching in horror and unable to do anything.
Today they're 22 - what will they do in November?
Non legit hoc
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#21424 User is offline   shyams 

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Posted 2024-April-23, 02:42

View Postbarmar, on 2024-April-22, 14:39, said:

So have we all finally gotten tired of talking about Trump? The thread was idle over 3 weeks, and then only 1 post with no responses.


What's the point in responding? Most Americans are convinced that Russia is, and has been, the enemy of all things good/moral/holy. That Russia poses an existential threat to your nation and your way of life.

Maybe the knowledgeable posters on this forum can list all instances over the past 15-20 years where Russia has directly harmed or threatened the soverignty or key national interests of the USA. Perhaps you'd like toinclude USA's closest allies in the West (Canada, UK, France, Germany, Australia) -- how has Russia harmed these nations?
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#21425 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2024-April-23, 02:52

View Postshyams, on 2024-April-23, 02:42, said:

What's the point in responding? Most Americans are convinced that Russia is, and has been, the enemy of all things good/moral/holy. That Russia poses an existential threat to your nation and your way of life.

Maybe the knowledgeable posters on this forum can list all instances over the past 15-20 years where Russia has directly harmed or threatened the soverignty or key national interests of the USA. Perhaps you'd like toinclude USA's closest allies in the West (Canada, UK, France, Germany, Australia) -- how has Russia harmed these nations?


Massive amounts of cybercrime particularly ransomware attacks, election interference.

Also the woman killed when she picked up the Novichok bottle after the Skripal attack.
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#21426 User is offline   shyams 

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Posted 2024-April-23, 03:51

View PostCyberyeti, on 2024-April-23, 02:52, said:

Massive amounts of cybercrime particularly ransomware attacks, election interference.

Also the woman killed when she picked up the Novichok bottle after the Skripal attack.

1. Cybercrime is everywhere (I am not trying to justify or reduce Russia's role in it). The biggest & most clearly visible cybercrime attack ("Wannacry") on the UK was done by N Korea. Are we sure Russian cybercrime is so pervasive and pernicious that it stands out above all others?
2. Election interference: How? The UK general elections definitely have not been compromised (by anybody). Not aware of any other nation suffering either --- except USA (of course). How big & how real the Russian election interference in US elections will vary based on who is opining (My view: definitely affected a chunk of voters, but nobody knows if it swung elections in any material way)
3. Skripal attack: Yes, agreed (incl. the death of that woman). So does the polonium poisoning of Litvinenko in Central London.

Edit: Are the above three topics "existential risks"?
Trudeau tells his nation that if Russia defeats Ukraine, Canada is next in the firing line --- if everyone believes it to be true, then the assault & ravaging of Ukraine by Russia is genuinely existential for Canada. But is it true?

This post has been edited by shyams: 2024-April-23, 04:04

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#21427 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2024-April-23, 07:03

Gaslighting comes in many flavors and tying risk to existential threat is its vanilla. The risk is not Russia but Putin in control of Russia, and as such he is actively and consistently working to undermine the stability of liberal democracies worldwide, not to cause collapse but to create regime changes that are favorable to his interests.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#21428 User is offline   shyams 

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Posted 2024-April-23, 07:19

View PostWinstonm, on 2024-April-23, 07:03, said:

Gaslighting comes in many flavors and tying risk to existential threat is its vanilla. The risk is not Russia but Putin in control of Russia, and as such he is actively and consistently working to undermine the stability of liberal democracies worldwide, not to cause collapse but to create regime changes that are favorable to his interests.

ROFL
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#21429 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2024-April-23, 14:59

View Postpilowsky, on 2024-April-22, 20:43, said:

Perhaps we can term this the "fish and chip wrapper syndrome".

People are mainly anxious about things that affect them directly and since Trump is no longer a direct existential threat people don't like to discuss it.
Strangely, there seems to be a growing perception that Trump wasn't that bad (the "after all Mussolini did get the trains running on time" fallacy).

I've just been reading Michael Lewis' book "The fifth risk".

It seems that we were only saved from the worst of Trump because he was unprepared and incompetent.
Next time would be much worse.

A person, born in 2004, was 12 years old when Trump was elected.
Watching in horror and unable to do anything.
Today they're 22 - what will they do in November?


I have not heard anyone say "Trump wasn't that bad ". IN the family conversation I referred to above the unanimous view was that he is far beyond awful almost unimaginably so. So. as I said, there really wasn't much to discuss as to "What do you think of Trump?". We did spend a little time discussing just how things have gone so terribly wrong.

When things go wrong in my own life I find it both sensible and useful to ask myself if maybe some of my own choices were not so great. I strongly recommend that the Democratic Party leadership apply that line of thinking to themselves. If they think it over and come to the conclusion that their decisions have all been right in every way and the blame falls soley on the stupidity of the people, I think they are delusional.
Ken
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#21430 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2024-April-23, 19:39

View Postkenberg, on 2024-April-23, 14:59, said:

I have not heard anyone say "Trump wasn't that bad ". IN the family conversation I referred to above the unanimous view was that he is far beyond awful almost unimaginably so. So. as I said, there really wasn't much to discuss as to "What do you think of Trump?". We did spend a little time discussing just how things have gone so terribly wrong.

When things go wrong in my own life I find it both sensible and useful to ask myself if maybe some of my own choices were not so great. I strongly recommend that the Democratic Party leadership apply that line of thinking to themselves. If they think it over and come to the conclusion that their decisions have all been right in every way and the blame falls soley on the stupidity of the people, I think they are delusional.


The 'wasn't that bad' comment was referencing a NYT/Siena poll.
Q. Have their policies helped you personally?
Biden - 18%
Trump - 40%

Q. Hurt you personally?
Biden - 43%
Trump - 25%

I'd like to know which town in Kentucky was selected for this poll. Still, the results are baffling.

On a side-note Trump called for his supporters to come out in NY at the courthouse.
A crowd estimated at 5 to 6 people rallied.
Non legit hoc
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#21431 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2024-April-24, 07:06

How do you get uninterested people to understand that inflation and gas prices are not directly tied to who is in office?
Biden needs better PR, a new spokesman.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#21432 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2024-April-24, 09:23

View Postpilowsky, on 2024-April-23, 19:39, said:

The 'wasn't that bad' comment was referencing a NYT/Siena poll.
Q. Have their policies helped you personally?
Biden - 18%
Trump - 40%

Q. Hurt you personally?
Biden - 43%
Trump - 25%

I'd like to know which town in Kentucky was selected for this poll. Still, the results are baffling.

On a side-note Trump called for his supporters to come out in NY at the courthouse.
A crowd estimated at 5 to 6 people rallied.




That's a very interesting article, thank you and I recommend it.

And it got me to thinking: Can I really say which Trump policiy helped or hurt me personally and which Biden policy helped or hurt me personally? I support access to abortion but as an 85 year old guy I do not expect to be pregnant, or to get anyone pregant, anytime soon. And I finished payimg off my student loan about 55 years ago.
Ken
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#21433 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2024-April-24, 10:45

"It makes no difference whatever whether they laugh at us or revile us ... whether they represent us as clowns or criminals; the main thing is that they mention us, that they concern themselves with us again and again ..." - Some ex-Gernan leader
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#21434 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2024-April-26, 07:35

I'll say a bit more about the NYT article and the poll that Pilowsky mentioned above. The issue was how policies of Trump and Biden affected each person personally, and some interviews are given. A guy named Perez (he gave his name for the article) voted for Trump in 2016, for Biden in 2020, and plans to vote for Trump in 2024. First, this mens he is not a dedicated Trumpie. He is doing as he thinks best. Next, he says that he chose Biden in 2020 based on his (Perez's) union membership. He thought Biden was better on union issues. Now he is planning on voting for Trump based on the economy, specifically prices at the store and at the pump.

A thought: I don't know Mr. Perez but if I were to go out on a limb and place a bet, it wouold be that he does not have student loan debt, his wife is not seeking an abortion, his kids do not have gender identity issues.So here is the question: If the Democratic Party wants to get his vote for Bided, for a Dem for the Senate, for a Dem for the House this coming fall, how do they go about it? He voted for Biden in 2020, so getting his vote should not be written off as hopeless. But what case can the Dems make that might get him to stick with Biden and the Dems?

I am leading a comfortable life in retirement. Problems? Sure. But I cope. I think Trump is a scumbag, I think he is a menace, I think he thinks of nothing or no-one other than himself. So no, I absolutely do not want him anywhere near the White House or anywhere near anything. But that still leaves the question of what to say to Mr. Perez. He voted for Biden four years ago, can we convince him to do so again?

The question is worth thinking about.
Ken
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#21435 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2024-April-26, 10:35

View Postshyams, on 2024-April-23, 02:42, said:

What's the point in responding? Most Americans are convinced that Russia is, and has been, the enemy of all things good/moral/holy. That Russia poses an existential threat to your nation and your way of life.

Maybe the knowledgeable posters on this forum can list all instances over the past 15-20 years where Russia has directly harmed or threatened the soverignty or key national interests of the USA. Perhaps you'd like toinclude USA's closest allies in the West (Canada, UK, France, Germany, Australia) -- how has Russia harmed these nations?


For me, it's enough that the Russian regime is full of genocidal monsters who indiscriminately murder their neighbors.
The mass murders don't need to be directed against Western European for me to care.

But, since you ask, conspiring to get Trump elected during the 2016 election...
That was existential...

The concerted influence campaigns to promote insane wedge issues on various social networks...
That's sure bad. (Promoting anti vaxxer's for example ...)

Promoting efforts to displace the dollar as the world's reserve currency? That's absolutely working against US national interests.

BTW, its nice to see you fully embracing your position as a pro Russia troll

The concerned leftist stuff was getting kinda old...
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#21436 User is offline   shyams 

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Posted 2024-April-26, 12:40

View Posthrothgar, on 2024-April-26, 10:35, said:

For me, it's enough that the Russian regime is full of genocidal monsters who indiscriminately murder their neighbors.
The mass murders don't need to be directed against Western European for me to care.

But, since you ask, conspiring to get Trump elected during the 2016 election...
That was existential...

The concerted influence campaigns to promote insane wedge issues on various social networks...
That's sure bad. (Promoting anti vaxxer's for example ...)

Promoting efforts to displace the dollar as the world's reserve currency? That's absolutely working against US national interests.

BTW, its nice to see you fully embracing your position as a pro Russia troll

The concerned leftist stuff was getting kinda old...


LOL, it is pointless to even attempt to reply when "arguments" are based on b/s dripfed by your national media to millions of people like you.

Out of curiosity, (a) Why does the US$ need to remain the world's reserve currency? Is it your nation's god given right? AND (b) Is thrashing every person who expresses a contrarian view a requirement?

You show a poor understanding of the meaning of the word "troll" yet you use it very liberally every time someone says something that hurts your feelings :)
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#21437 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2024-April-26, 15:56

View Postkenberg, on 2024-April-26, 07:35, said:

Now he is planning on voting for Trump based on the economy, specifically prices at the store and at the pump.
.....
But what case can the Dems make that might get him to stick with Biden and the Dems?


The problem is that right fringe media has been pounding away at the false narrative that the economy was better under Trump than under Biden. There were even some that were actually asking the question, "are you better off now than 4 years ago under Trump". Really? they want to go there? Mortuaries were overflowing with Covid victims, unemployment was headed towards Great Depression levels, hundreds of thousands of businesses were about to go out of business, and millions more were barely hanging on, lines at food banks were a mile long, the global economy would nearly shut down, countries closed their borders.

Every country in the world was profoundly affected by Covid, but the US has done better than just about every single industrialized country in making a recovery.

And even today, right fringe media finds every way they can to make headline features that put a negative spin on good employment numbers, and other economic indicators. So what can the Dems do? Do their best to highlight that the Biden economy is actually doing great, that inflation is way down, wages are up, the markets are doing well. And highlight the good things that happened and are happening under Biden, like the infrastructure act that is actually helping to rebuild America's infrastructure.
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#21438 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2024-April-26, 17:07

View Postjohnu, on 2024-April-26, 15:56, said:


Every country in the world was profoundly affected by Covid, but the US has done better than just about every single industrialized country in making a recovery.




Not according to the OECD - They've done OK, but "better than just about every single ...." is a bit of a stretch.
Non legit hoc
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#21439 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2024-April-26, 17:22

View Postshyams, on 2024-April-26, 12:40, said:

LOL, it is pointless to even attempt to reply when "arguments" are based on b/s dripfed by your national media to millions of people like you.

Out of curiosity, (a) Why does the US$ need to remain the world's reserve currency? Is it your nation's god given right? AND (b) Is thrashing every person who expresses a contrarian view a requirement?

You show a poor understanding of the meaning of the word "troll" yet you use it very liberally every time someone says something that hurts your feelings :)


You're not hurting my feelings

You're a *****wit
I find this distasteful, but it doesn't hurt my feelings

> (a) Why does the US$ need to remain the world's reserve currency? Is it your nation's god given right?

So, you concede my basic point then...

You asked for examples of how Russia was acting against US National interests.
I replied. Now you're trying to switch the topic

> Is thrashing every person who expresses a contrarian view a requirement?

Absolutely not. There's plenty of people that I can respectfully disagree with
You, you're SPECIAL

In the short bus sort of way...
Alderaan delenda est
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#21440 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2024-April-26, 17:23

View Postjohnu, on 2024-April-26, 15:56, said:

The problem is that right fringe media has been pounding away at the false narrative that the economy was better under Trump than under Biden. There were even some that were actually asking the question, "are you better off now than 4 years ago under Trump". Really? they want to go there? Mortuaries were overflowing with Covid victims, unemployment was headed towards Great Depression levels, hundreds of thousands of businesses were about to go out of business, and millions more were barely hanging on, lines at food banks were a mile long, the global economy would nearly shut down, countries closed their borders.


I recall getting a bum gun for my bathroom because there was no toilet paper to be had for months
Alderaan delenda est
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