BBO Discussion Forums: Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 1073 Pages +
  • « First
  • 93
  • 94
  • 95
  • 96
  • 97
  • Last »
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? Bernie Sanders wants to know who owns America?

#1881 User is offline   PassedOut 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,662
  • Joined: 2006-February-21
  • Location:Upper Michigan
  • Interests:Music, films, computer programming, politics, bridge

Posted 2016-July-28, 22:33

View Postmike777, on 2016-July-28, 18:37, said:

Clearly you are one poster who is unaware of this, I doubt you are the only one.

A 2 second google search found this:

http://money.cnn.com...rgency-savings/

So you were wrong that 80-90% of Americans are in the dire straits that you claimed. Your own link says that 50% have 3 months or more of savings. That's not great, but it's enough time to look for another job and to file for unemployment.

No one questions that many folks would be in difficulty after losing a job. It's just your exaggeration of the problem that diminishes the credibility of the point you were trying to make. Asserting that families making more than $100,000 per year (20%+) are angry and afraid and are going for their guns is, in my opinion, too much of a stretch.
The growth of wisdom may be gauged exactly by the diminution of ill temper. — Friedrich Nietzsche
The infliction of cruelty with a good conscience is a delight to moralists — that is why they invented hell. — Bertrand Russell
2

#1882 User is offline   Trinidad 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,531
  • Joined: 2005-October-09
  • Location:Netherlands

Posted 2016-July-29, 06:12

View PostPassedOut, on 2016-July-28, 22:33, said:

So you were wrong that 80-90% of Americans are in the dire straits that you claimed. Your own link says that 50% have 3 months or more of savings.

You could read it as "50 % have more than 3 months". I read "75% have no money at all after 6 months". I think that comes close enough to Mike's statement.

If you lose your job in America, how long does it take to find a new one? Sure, strong, fit people can always find something at minimum wage after a while. But often either the minimum wage isn't enough to pay the mortgage, or the people aren't strong and fit (which may have been the reason why they lost their job to begin with). And if for those people 6 months is not enough to find a job with an income similar to the one they used to have, then they are in trouble. They will need to be lucky to avoid losing the house when they lose their job.

Rik
I want my opponents to leave my table with a smile on their face and without matchpoints on their score card - in that order.
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
0

#1883 User is offline   kenberg 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,057
  • Joined: 2004-September-22
  • Location:Northern Maryland

Posted 2016-July-29, 06:45

View Postmike777, on 2016-July-28, 22:07, said:

Not sure why but posters even when told want to deny the simple fact. The majority , the vast majority are in fear and are anxious. If most if not the vast majority lose some paychecks they are in trouble.

I mean these comments just show what a bubble a rich bubble posters live in.
Americans own 300 million guns and the reaction is these people cling to guns and god and are not as smart as posters are.


See the same reaction to Brexit...the voters are uneducated.


We probably won't come to an agreement here. I acknowledge that my financial circumstances are in better shape that many. I do not regard myself as living in a rich bubble. I have never been in dire poverty, I have at times lived in very modest circumstances, I am now comfortable. I have some reasonably close up experiences with people closer to the edge. In my elementary school years a divorced mother of two lived, with her kids, in the upstairs of our modest house. At the top of the stairs there was adequate room to have a hot plat and a chair, and beyond that area there was a bedroom for her and the two girls. She must have, although I don't actually remember, taken a streetcar to her job at Wards, since owning a car would have been far beyond her means. After a while she developed a relationship with a guy (Eddie, I liked him) and perhaps he got her to work. I just don't recall.

So I don't think I am just some spoiled rich kid who knows nothing about how some people have to live. The neighborhood where I grew up was safe, well safe if you didn't act like an idiot, and it was stable. I grew up with security. I understand some don't. I really do understand that. But this contemptuous attitude of yours that we are all in some bubble fantasy is more than a bit over the top.
Ken
0

#1884 User is offline   PassedOut 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,662
  • Joined: 2006-February-21
  • Location:Upper Michigan
  • Interests:Music, films, computer programming, politics, bridge

Posted 2016-July-29, 06:58

View PostTrinidad, on 2016-July-29, 06:12, said:

You could read it as "50 % have more than 3 months". I read "75% have no money at all after 6 months". I think that comes close enough to Mike's statement.

If you lose your job in America, how long does it take to find a new one? Sure, strong, fit people can always find something at minimum wage after a while. But often either the minimum wage isn't enough to pay the mortgage, or the people aren't strong and fit (which may have been the reason why they lost their job to begin with). And if for those people 6 months is not enough to find a job with an income similar to the one they used to have, then they are in trouble. They will need to be lucky to avoid losing the house when they lose their job.

Rik


I should have said that no one questions that many folks would be in difficulty after losing a job. It's just that Mike's exaggeration of the problem -- saying that 80-90% of the population would be in trouble after losing two paychecks -- diminishes the credibility of the point that Mike was trying to make. Asserting that families making more than $100,000 per year are in the same category of people who are angry and afraid and are going for their guns is, in my opinion, too much of a stretch. I'm sure that some of those higher-income folks are stretched thin too, but that isn't the fault of immigrants or Muslims -- it's because of their own irresponsibility.

Folks without the skills to make good money in today's economy don't have the means to save six months of income. Those who do make good money know that they should save some of that money, but some choose to be foolish instead.

Yes, we do need to use a portion of the accumulated wealth in the US to rebuild our decaying infrastructure, creating jobs in the process. Yes, we do need to figure out how to make sure that people who cannot perform high-tech jobs can still live a decent life. This is becoming an acute problem, because the number of highly skilled jobs available to people is declining, and will continue to decline slowly, while the population continues to increase.

We need to address this problem, but throwing out wild exaggerations as facts is not helpful. And it's a bit sad that Mike does not understand that.
The growth of wisdom may be gauged exactly by the diminution of ill temper. — Friedrich Nietzsche
The infliction of cruelty with a good conscience is a delight to moralists — that is why they invented hell. — Bertrand Russell
0

#1885 User is offline   kenberg 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,057
  • Joined: 2004-September-22
  • Location:Northern Maryland

Posted 2016-July-29, 07:26

The D convention is complete. Several things struck me.

In her speech, HC observed that in public service she is better at the service part than the public part. An absolute truth. She looked robotic walking around the stage, lifting an arm, pointing at someone, or maybe just pointing, smiling, nodding, etc. And the speech, to put it mildly, lacked substance. I was watching the commentary on PBS afterward and David Brooks observed that the two weakest speeches of the convention were given by the two candidates Kaine and Clinton. I didn't listen to every speech, and he may not mean it absolutely anyway, but he is certainly right that their speeches were at the weak end.

How about the overall structure? I was stunned. Last night was focused on traditional D values. A strong endorsement from a retired general. A Medal of Honor winner. All in all, a commitment to military preparedness. If Hillary is looking for votes in the neighborhood that I grew up in, this will help. My father was 41 when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. My mother talked him out of joining up, but it took some talking. And support for the police! I'm not yet positive where this is all going, but it is very interesting.

Michael Bloomberg did not, I am sure, bring in any converts from the Sanders camp to the Hillary camp. He wasn't trying to. But his message, summarized as "I'm from New York and I recognize a con when I see it", may get a few Trumpies to re-think a bit.

Every candidate woould like to woo over everyone, but choices have to be made. At breakfast I mentioned to Becky that of course women's aspirations were addressed, and there was a nod to LGBT, but Black Lives Matter was not mentioned. Becky had noticed that also. I imagine many did. We shall see where this goes. Certainly the African-American community was not ignored, but BLM was not mentioned. "I will reform the criminal justice system". Ok, who could object to that? But it's a bit vague.

Go Hillary. I await with interest the next move.
Ken
0

#1886 User is offline   Zelandakh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,667
  • Joined: 2006-May-18
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 2016-July-29, 07:52

View Postkenberg, on 2016-July-28, 19:18, said:

Today I would not notice such an error, even if adjusted for inflation. I was married, I had a child, I was living on not much. I knew what cost what, down to the penny. But life changes.

I still go through (almost) every supermarket receipt to make sure that the price listed is the correct one. I have found a number of errors and Rewe seems to be particularly bad for this. They are also less forthcoming about paying it back after their mistakes but so far I have managed it, albeit on some occasions with difficulty. The UK was a lot better in this area and there was never any difficulty in obtaining a refund for the supermarkets' mistakes there.
(-: Zel :-)
0

#1887 User is offline   Winstonm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,197
  • Joined: 2005-January-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tulsa, Oklahoma
  • Interests:Art, music

Posted 2016-July-29, 08:07

View Postmike777, on 2016-July-28, 22:07, said:

Not sure why but posters even when told want to deny the simple fact. The majority , the vast majority are in fear and are anxious. If most if not the vast majority lose some paychecks they are in trouble.

I mean these comments just show what a bubble a rich bubble posters live in.
Americans own 300 million guns and the reaction is these people cling to guns and god and are not as smart as posters are.


See the same reaction to Brexit...the voters are uneducated.


Fear and anxiety are not solely the product of economic factors. I know quite well-to-do's who are strongly bigoted, and bigotry is nothing if not an expression of fear and anxiety: fear of loss of status, anxiety about change, fear of ego damage, angst caused by living in a world perceived as dangerous.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
0

#1888 User is offline   Zelandakh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,667
  • Joined: 2006-May-18
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 2016-July-29, 08:10

View PostTrinidad, on 2016-July-29, 06:12, said:

You could read it as "50 % have more than 3 months". I read "75% have no money at all after 6 months". I think that comes close enough to Mike's statement.

I read it that you take the average monthly expenses and multiply by 6 for each individual to get a number. 76% have less than this amount in their savings account and 50% have less than half of this amount in savings. Note that a Yuppie living it up spending 100k per month and "only" having half a million in the bank would qualify in the 76%, since this calculation does not appear to cover savings in the form of assets, nor indeed even cash in a current account. This is only a relevant number for those surveyed who a. might lose their entire income suddenly; b. cannot cut expenses significantly; and c. cannot find an alternative income within 6 months. My guess is that that is a fairly small proportion of those surveyed. I am confident there are much more useful measures available for determining families close to the poverty line.
(-: Zel :-)
0

#1889 User is offline   cherdano 

  • 5555
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,516
  • Joined: 2003-September-04
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2016-July-29, 09:15

View Postkenberg, on 2016-July-29, 07:26, said:

At breakfast I mentioned to Becky that of course women's aspirations were addressed, and there was a nod to LGBT, but Black Lives Matter was not mentioned. Becky had noticed that also. I imagine many did. We shall see where this goes. Certainly the African-American community was not ignored, but BLM was not mentioned.

She didn't use those words, but she clearly addressed their concerns.
A paragraph about systemic racism. A paragraph about justice reform and rebuilding trust between police and their communities.

I also don't know what you mean by lack of substance. Look at the transcript. I bet it has more policy substance than most acceptance speeches.

http://www.vox.com/p...ion/in/11938179
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
0

#1890 User is offline   kenberg 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,057
  • Joined: 2004-September-22
  • Location:Northern Maryland

Posted 2016-July-29, 09:23

View PostZelandakh, on 2016-July-29, 07:52, said:

I still go through (almost) every supermarket receipt to make sure that the price listed is the correct one. I have found a number of errors and Rewe seems to be particularly bad for this. They are also less forthcoming about paying it back after their mistakes but so far I have managed it, albeit on some occasions with difficulty. The UK was a lot better in this area and there was never any difficulty in obtaining a refund for the supermarkets' mistakes there.

Now that I think about this, we do too. More precisely, Becky does. The problem is that marketing has become complex. For example, I am short of tee-shuirts. No problem you buy some, right? Wrong. I am off to play f2f bridge in a bit and I mentioned to Becky that I might get stop off on the way home end buy tee-shirts. Ah. Wait. She has a coupon. 20% off on everything, yesterday through Sunday. Also, we get triple something or other points, which does something for us with future purchases. We will go tomorrow and pool our purchases.

Between marriages, I tried using grocery coupons and sometimes I really followed through. It saves a lot of money. But I hated it, and more often than not I just bought what I wanted and paid for it. Becky brings coupons with her. Sometimes reducing a grocery bill by fifty dollars or more.

But my point is still: At one time in my life I knew exactly how much I would be spending, and on exactly what, when I walked into a store. I had to know, because I had nothing extra. That is no longer the case. I still think it is stupid to fork over 2+ bucks for a cup of coffee at Starbucks when I can do a better job of brewing it at home and for a lot less money. But the difference is, first, that I am not sure what the plus is on the 2 plus bucks and, second, I do it anyway.

Winston has said more than once that anxiety is not always economic anxiety. This is true. But a lot of it is economic, and for quite a few people the anxiety is warranted. We probably all agree on that. What to do? That's less clear. Which makes the message "It will be terrific. Trust me, I guarantee it" seductive. I think that the Ds having people from varied lives on stage, all endorsing HC and saying that DT is not the answer, was a decent counter to this. A beginning.
Ken
2

#1891 User is offline   PassedOut 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,662
  • Joined: 2006-February-21
  • Location:Upper Michigan
  • Interests:Music, films, computer programming, politics, bridge

Posted 2016-July-29, 09:24

View Postkenberg, on 2016-July-29, 07:26, said:

In her speech, HC observed that in public service she is better at the service part than the public part. An absolute truth. She looked robotic walking around the stage, lifting an arm, pointing at someone, or maybe just pointing, smiling, nodding, etc. And the speech, to put it mildly, lacked substance.

Yes, that's not her strong suit for sure.

However, my understanding is that people who've worked with her -- of all political persuasions -- agree that she's whip-smart, well-organized, hard-working, and a good listener. I much prefer that to a spell-binding speaker who lacks those other qualities. I know in advance that I won't agree with everything she does as president, but that's always the case. I expect that I would be irritated almost every day by what Donald would do as president.
The growth of wisdom may be gauged exactly by the diminution of ill temper. — Friedrich Nietzsche
The infliction of cruelty with a good conscience is a delight to moralists — that is why they invented hell. — Bertrand Russell
0

#1892 User is offline   Zelandakh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,667
  • Joined: 2006-May-18
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 2016-July-29, 10:01

View Postkenberg, on 2016-July-29, 09:23, said:

But my point is still: At one time in my life I knew exactly how much I would be spending, and on exactly what, when I walked into a store. I had to know, because I had nothing extra.

I had such a time too, only probably more so, in that there was not actually enough cash available to buy everything at full price. I would know what I would buy if there were no special offers but would check all of the aisles for specials and substitute cheaper alternatives where possible. I had another time as a student where it was even worse and had almost no cash at all for half of the summer but had luckily saved up some packet soups and lived off of those topped up with bread.

Like you, things are different now but I think these things live with you, as is perhaps indicated by your wife taking the time to use the coupons and loyalty point schemes. But you and I are both intelligent and analytical. Those are not really the combination of qualities Trump is looking for. Better to find people that react instinctively and do not bother to scratch beneath the surface. And there are a lot of such people, many more than there are like us.

What I got so far from the Democratic conference is that the Clinton campaign is going to try and steal Trump's "change" clothes. The one thing that everyone seems to be able to agree on is that they want change in Washington. At the moment, Trump is seen as the one that will shake things up and Hillary is the establishment candidate. It looks like her main campaign thrust is going to be to position her as a harbinger of real change and portray Trump as all bluster and no substance. Is anyone going to buy that? Cause I have this bridge to go with it, real cheap... B-)
(-: Zel :-)
0

#1893 User is offline   PassedOut 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,662
  • Joined: 2006-February-21
  • Location:Upper Michigan
  • Interests:Music, films, computer programming, politics, bridge

Posted 2016-July-29, 10:16

View PostZelandakh, on 2016-July-29, 10:01, said:

What I got so far from the Democratic conference is that the Clinton campaign is going to try and steal Trump's "change" clothes. The one thing that everyone seems to be able to agree on is that they want change in Washington. At the moment, Trump is seen as the one that will shake things up and Hillary is the establishment candidate. It looks like her main campaign thrust is going to be to position her as a harbinger of real change and portray Trump as all bluster and no substance.

What I got is that Hillary will continue to push for incremental changes to improve what already exists, probably in bigger increments than she would otherwise have chosen because of the pressure from Bernie's people. No doubt that Trump would shake things up a lot more, but who knows how and in what direction? I doubt that he knows either. He's undisciplined, irrational, and won't listen to people -- even republicans who want him to win -- who know what they are talking about.

I'd hate to see the NSA under Trump's direction, and that's a consequence of Obama's failure to rein in the intelligence apparatus so that a disastrous choice for president in the future wouldn't be able to misuse the capabilities.
The growth of wisdom may be gauged exactly by the diminution of ill temper. — Friedrich Nietzsche
The infliction of cruelty with a good conscience is a delight to moralists — that is why they invented hell. — Bertrand Russell
0

#1894 User is offline   Winstonm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,197
  • Joined: 2005-January-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tulsa, Oklahoma
  • Interests:Art, music

Posted 2016-July-29, 13:26

View Postkenberg, on 2016-July-29, 09:23, said:

Now that I think about this, we do too. More precisely, Becky does. The problem is that marketing has become complex. For example, I am short of tee-shuirts. No problem you buy some, right? Wrong. I am off to play f2f bridge in a bit and I mentioned to Becky that I might get stop off on the way home end buy tee-shirts. Ah. Wait. She has a coupon. 20% off on everything, yesterday through Sunday. Also, we get triple something or other points, which does something for us with future purchases. We will go tomorrow and pool our purchases.

Between marriages, I tried using grocery coupons and sometimes I really followed through. It saves a lot of money. But I hated it, and more often than not I just bought what I wanted and paid for it. Becky brings coupons with her. Sometimes reducing a grocery bill by fifty dollars or more.

But my point is still: At one time in my life I knew exactly how much I would be spending, and on exactly what, when I walked into a store. I had to know, because I had nothing extra. That is no longer the case. I still think it is stupid to fork over 2+ bucks for a cup of coffee at Starbucks when I can do a better job of brewing it at home and for a lot less money. But the difference is, first, that I am not sure what the plus is on the 2 plus bucks and, second, I do it anyway.

Winston has said more than once that anxiety is not always economic anxiety. This is true. But a lot of it is economic, and for quite a few people the anxiety is warranted. We probably all agree on that. What to do? That's less clear. Which makes the message "It will be terrific. Trust me, I guarantee it" seductive. I think that the Ds having people from varied lives on stage, all endorsing HC and saying that DT is not the answer, was a decent counter to this. A beginning.


There is certainly economic anxiety - as well as anger - and a lot of it is from living uncertainly from paycheck to paycheck. But at least as many IMO are anxious because there is no longer a pathway to the middle class for those who do not want a college degree or who cannot afford one. This is more than a matter of daily money - this is a "where is my future and how do I fit in" question. There is anxiety over student loan debt. There is fear and anxiety about whites losing their dominant role. There is anxiety and fear over terrorism. And there is genuine anger that neither party has had the guts to stand up for the middle class and made the middle class not simple a priority but the priority.

If Hillary can somehow reach those disaffected souls, Trump has no chance. If they all go to Trump, it could be a historically disastrous November.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
1

#1895 User is offline   cherdano 

  • 5555
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,516
  • Joined: 2003-September-04
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2016-July-29, 14:15

View Postkenberg, on 2016-July-29, 07:26, said:

And the speech, to put it mildly, lacked substance.

What exactly do you expect in an acceptance speech?

Here are some quotes from the transcript related to policy:

Quote

You've [Sanders] put economic and social justice issues front and center, where they belong.

And we'll build a path to citizenship for millions of immigrants who are already contributing to our economy!

That's why we need to appoint Supreme Court justices who will get money out of politics and expand voting rights, not restrict them. And we'll pass a constitutional amendment to overturn Citizens United!

I believe American corporations that have gotten so much from our country should be just as patriotic in return.

I believe in science. I believe that climate change is real and that we can save our planet while creating millions of good-paying clean energy jobs.

Comprehensive immigration reform will grow our economy and keep families together - and it's the right thing to do.

companies should share profits with their workers

the minimum wage should be a living wage... and no one working full time should have to raise their children in poverty

every man, woman, and child in America has the right to affordable health care

we should say "no" to unfair trade deals... that we should stand up to China... that we should support our steelworkers and autoworkers and homegrown manufacturers

we should expand Social Security and protect a woman's right to make her own health care decisions.

your working mother, wife, sister, or daughter deserves equal pay

In my first 100 days, we will work with both parties to pass the biggest investment in new, good-paying jobs since World War II.

Bernie Sanders and I will work together to make college tuition-free for the middle class and debt-free for all!

We will also liberate millions of people who already have student debt.

And here's something we don't say often enough: College is crucial, but a four-year degree should not be the only path to a good job.
We're going to help more people learn a skill or practice a trade and make a good living doing it.

We're going to give small businesses a boost. Make it easier to get credit. Way too many dreams die in the parking lots of banks.

We're going to help you balance family and work. And you know what, if fighting for affordable child care and paid family leave is playing the "woman card," then Deal Me In!

Wall Street, corporations, and the super-rich are going to start paying their fair share of taxes.

I'm proud to stand by our allies in NATO against any threat they face, including from Russia.

I've laid out my strategy for defeating ISIS.
We will strike their sanctuaries from the air, and support local forces taking them out on the ground. We will surge our intelligence so that we detect and prevent attacks before they happen.

We will reform our criminal justice system from end-to-end, and rebuild trust between law enforcement and the communities they serve.

We will defend all our rights - civil rights, human rights and voting rights... women's rights and workers' rights... LGBT rights and the rights of people with disabilities!


And I have omitted negative mentions ("We will not build a wall/ban a religion", "I believe that when we have millions of hardworking immigrants contributing to our economy, it would be self-defeating and inhumane to kick them out."), or parts where she diagnosed problems ("So let's put ourselves in the shoes of young black and Latino men and women who face the effects of systemic racism, and are made to feel like their lives are disposable.") where even stating that problem in a prominent speech implies a position.

Of course none of the sentences above are a complete description of a solution. But each of them describes a policy position on an issue where there isn't universal agreement, and almost all of them describe a substantial difference to the likely policy priorities of a Trump administration.

What exactly are you looking for? Do you want to know whether she wants to raise the minimum wage to 12$ or 15$? Whom she would choose as a Supreme court justice? An acceptance speech has to do many things, and can only be so long. And for many of these sentences, you'll find more details on her website, which I am sure you can google.
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
3

#1896 User is offline   kenberg 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,057
  • Joined: 2004-September-22
  • Location:Northern Maryland

Posted 2016-July-29, 16:41

View Postcherdano, on 2016-July-29, 14:15, said:

What exactly do you expect in an acceptance speech?
What exactly are you looking for?


I will try to say.

I found the convention as a whole truly impressive. I cannot recall a convention that I found more interesting. I have mentioned some of why.


But for the speech, let's take a couple of the example from your list:

"Wall Street, corporations, and the super-rich are going to start paying their fair share of taxes."
Is there anyone in America, even a drunk sprawled out on a barroom floor, who found this statement of hers to be a surprise?

Same with
"the minimum wage should be a living wage... and no one working full time should have to raise their children in poverty"

And many many others.

Let me try it from a different angle. I believe Joe Biden's speech might have influenced a guy in a factory to rethink his plan to vote for Trump. Maybe even to rethink his overall tendency to vote R. The speech of the Muslim father who lost his son was moving, for anyone capable of being moved. Bloomberg's speech could get the attention of those who think "Hey, let's put a successful businessman in charge". Perhaps leading to second thoughts. It is beyond my imagination that someone would be watching the Hillary speech and say "Well, I was thinking of voting for Trump but now that Hillary says she believes in science I am going to go with her". I could have written that speech. Anyone could have written her speech. The convention was seriously impressive. The speech was a missed opportunity.

I am saying what I think here. Possibly I will be shown to be wrong. Maybe the rest of the world will see it as an impressive speech. This will surprise me. Amaze me, actually.
Ken
0

#1897 User is offline   cherdano 

  • 5555
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,516
  • Joined: 2003-September-04
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2016-July-29, 22:02

Ken, you are using the word "substance" with a meaning that I have not encountered before. I agree Joe Biden's speech was great and convincing. But substance? It's substance can be pretty much summarized by "I know Hillary - she gets it. Donald has no clue - not about the middle class, nor about foreign policy. USA is great."

View Postkenberg, on 2016-July-29, 16:41, said:

But for the speech, let's take a couple of the example from your list:

"Wall Street, corporations, and the super-rich are going to start paying their fair share of taxes."
Is there anyone in America, even a drunk sprawled out on a barroom floor, who found this statement of hers to be a surprise?

It was a choice to say it in the most prominent forum that the campaign provides for her, something she could well have omitted.

Quote

"the minimum wage should be a living wage... and no one working full time should have to raise their children in poverty"

Again, it was a choice to say it (and also a choice not to mention $15).

She could have followed Wednesday night's script and give a basically apolitical speech - "Hillary cares about you, Hillary gets it, and she would be trustworthy commander-in-chief - and just have a look at the alternative". She made an active choice not do that, and instead she made an unapologetic case for progressive policies.

I think that says something about her. She chose to portray herself as a progressive, and as a steady (and if necessary hawkish) commander-in-chief, and she seemed very comfortable in that role.

Meanwhile, her speech tried to do a few things:
1. Make herself more relatable. She couldn't have done that if it included a Joe-Biden style pounding, or if she had spoken in a voice that's not hers.
2. Commit herself to progressive policies. (It's one thing to say these things when you are holding a primary campaign rally in California, another to repeat them at the convention speech. Convention speeches are remembered, and their promises will appear in "Did Hillary fulfill her campaign promises?"-lists in 4 years.)
3. Attack Trump's competence and temperament.

1. will (if successful) pay off down the road - regaining trustworthiness pays dividends later. 3. made the case for moderates to vote her instead of Trump - basically making the Biden/Bloomberg case as well as she could in a few paragraphs. (And you could tell that the speechwriting team kept the best lines for the boss!) But 2. was important for offering a positive reason to vote for her - only providing the Biden/Bloomberg rationale of "lesser evil voting" would fail to get some of the Sanders supporters on board, would fail to motivate the Democratic base to turn out (and to phonebank/canvass/... as campaign volunteers).
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
1

#1898 User is offline   kenberg 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,057
  • Joined: 2004-September-22
  • Location:Northern Maryland

Posted 2016-July-30, 06:17

Perhaps we can. partially, agree that what comes next will be critical. One of her strengths is that she really does know the details. That doesn't quite mean that I am ready to go into minute detail but it does mean going beyond requiring the wealthy to pay their fair share. Donald Trump thinks the wealthy should pay their fair share, he just has a different idea of what constitutes a fair share.

Here is an example I have mentioned before, Social Security. I get a Social Security check every month. Now, to quote myself from before, I will accept more money if the government decides to give me more, but I don't actually think that they should. If I understand the Sanders plan correctly, and I think H has endorsed it, we all get a boost. That's fine if the country can afford it but the books do have to balance (in some general senses, I don't mean to be advocating a balanced budget amendment). My father was in is thirties when FDR started SS, and for much of his life he was not paying in because he was not on a salary, and he did not have all that much of a cushion. In retirement, his SS benefits were not much. He could have made good use of an SS boost and I believe others are still in that position. I am not. I am not so well off that means testing, at any reasonable level, will affect me, but I don't need a SS boost beyond keeping up with inflation. Which brings up a related matter. I am very suspicious of these calls, from time to time, to use some chaining (if that's the right word) of measures of inflation. I am far from convinced that any measure of inflation needs to be revised downward. Right now inflation is low, but that is only for now. My father died in 1977. Inflation was already making a mess of his finances, had he lived another five years it would have been seriously bad.

Trump has not a bit of interest in these issues. Not a bit. Hillary does. That's the good news. But these things become very political Inevitable, but not good. Practical solutions often get drowned out. I don't look kindly on chants of "USA,USA" and I don't look kindly on chants of "No more war, No more war".

We are told that we are at a crossroads. Yes, but I only wish it were that simple. I have thought a bit about why I reacted as strongly as I did to Bernie Sanders. Perhaps this: His fundamental message was "Your problems are someone else's fault". The big banks, Wall Street. The One Percent. Ok, to some extent this is true. But we still need practical solutions.

I will be voting for Hillary. Julia Roberts in Pretty Woman comes to mind "This seductive approach is all very nice, but I'm a sure thing". I'm a sure thing, but I hope for better than what I heard in her speech, and I am far from alone in this.
Ken
0

#1899 User is offline   PassedOut 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,662
  • Joined: 2006-February-21
  • Location:Upper Michigan
  • Interests:Music, films, computer programming, politics, bridge

Posted 2016-July-30, 07:04

View Postcherdano, on 2016-July-29, 14:15, said:

An acceptance speech has to do many things, and can only be so long. And for many of these sentences, you'll find more details on her website...

Clinton's specific plans are detailed and easily accessible. It seems that's one of her problems: Hillary Clinton has a very detailed plan for the economy. That may be a problem.

Quote

Campaign officials say they have constantly heard from donors and outside advisers that their candidate needs to strip down her economic message. It's a challenge, they say, that weighs on them. “You don’t want to be, as the expression goes, bringing a calculator to a knife fight," said one senior Clinton adviser, speaking on the condition of anonymity to frankly discuss the campaign strategy.

Clinton’s plan represents “a very sensible approach to economic policy and the challenges we face,” said Alan Krueger, a Princeton economist and former chairman of President Obama’s Council of Economic Advisers who is advising Clinton in the race. “The risk in the campaign is, it doesn’t fit easily on a bumper sticker.”

My personal preference is for detailed plans. I'd like it if the White House would provide a detailed set of plans every year to support the State of the Union address. Each State of the Union address would generally explain what did and did not go according to the previous plan, how the actual performance tracked the original plan and why the variances occurred, and explain both the new and continuing goals. That would all be broad brush: I don't believe that details generally belong in a major address unless they are dramatically important and easy to state.

Beyond that, I'd like the White House to provide quarterly updates on how the latest plans are progressing. If a major change is needed mid year, the need for those changes would be explained in a short address to the nation.

But I see from this article that I might be in the minority on this. It wouldn't be the first time. :P
The growth of wisdom may be gauged exactly by the diminution of ill temper. — Friedrich Nietzsche
The infliction of cruelty with a good conscience is a delight to moralists — that is why they invented hell. — Bertrand Russell
0

#1900 User is offline   y66 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,496
  • Joined: 2006-February-24

Posted 2016-July-30, 07:35

View Postkenberg, on 2016-July-30, 06:17, said:

I have thought a bit about why I reacted as strongly as I did to Bernie Sanders. Perhaps this: His fundamental message was "Your problems are someone else's fault". The big banks, Wall Street. The One Percent. Ok, to some extent this is true. But we still need practical solutions.

I've wondered about your strong reaction too. In addition to taking on Wall Street, One Percenters, Citizens United, racists, homophobes, misogynists, xenophobes, i.e., the core Republican constituency, Sanders did tend to promise way more than he or any president can deliver and way more than most American voters want in 2016. IMO, the thing we want and need most from our presidents is someone who can steer a steady course in a direction most of us want to go or are at least willing to explore and make sensible adjustments as we go. Perhaps Sanders was too much like Columbus in what, relative to his vision, is still a world of flat earthers. Personally, I like his more like Denmark vision a lot even if it lacks an essential quality of pragmatism and I never thought it would get as much traction as it did this year. In any case, as others have said, Sanders' net contributions to the Democratic party's identity, its platform and its soul have been positive. As just one example of this, it was very encouraging to see HC make a number of comments in her speech that suggest she now gets what people like Andy Grove have been saying and Bernie Sanders has been channeling about job creation for a long time:

Quote

Today, manufacturing employment in the U.S. computer industry is about 166,000, lower than it was before the first PC, the MITS Altair 2800, was assembled in 1975 (figure-B). Meanwhile, a very effective computer manufacturing industry has emerged in Asia, employing about 1.5 million workers—factory employees, engineers, and managers. The largest of these companies is Hon Hai Precision Industry, also known as Foxconn. The company has grown at an astounding rate, first in Taiwan and later in China. Its revenues last year were $62 billion, larger than Apple (AAPL), Microsoft (MSFT), Dell (DELL), or Intel. Foxconn employs over 800,000 people, more than the combined worldwide head count of Apple, Dell, Microsoft, Hewlett-Packard (HPQ), Intel, and Sony (SNE) (figure-C).

Until a recent spate of suicides at Foxconn's giant factory complex in Shenzhen, China, few Americans had heard of the company. But most know the products it makes: computers for Dell and HP, Nokia (NOK) cell phones, Microsoft Xbox 360 consoles, Intel motherboards, and countless other familiar gadgets. Some 250,000 Foxconn employees in southern China produce Apple's products. Apple, meanwhile, has about 25,000 employees in the U.S. That means for every Apple worker in the U.S. there are 10 people in China working on iMacs, iPods, and iPhones. The same roughly 10-to-1 relationship holds for Dell, disk-drive maker Seagate Technology (STX), and other U.S. tech companies.

You could say, as many do, that shipping jobs overseas is no big deal because the high-value work—and much of the profits—remain in the U.S. That may well be so. But what kind of a society are we going to have if it consists of highly paid people doing high-value-added work—and masses of unemployed?

Since the early days of Silicon Valley, the money invested in companies has increased dramatically, only to produce fewer jobs. Simply put, the U.S. has become wildly inefficient at creating American tech jobs. We may be less aware of this growing inefficiency, however, because our history of creating jobs over the past few decades has been spectacular—masking our greater and greater spending to create each position. Should we wait and not act on the basis of early indicators? I think that would be a tragic mistake, because the only chance we have to reverse the deterioration is if we act early and decisively.

Already the decline has been marked. It may be measured by way of a simple calculation—an estimate of the employment cost-effectiveness of a company. First, take the initial investment plus the investment during a company's IPO. Then divide that by the number of employees working in that company 10 years later. For Intel this worked out to be about $650 per job—$3,600 adjusted for inflation. National Semiconductor (NSM), another chip company, was even more efficient at $2,000 per job. Making the same calculations for a number of Silicon Valley companies shows that the cost of creating U.S. jobs grew from a few thousand dollars per position in the early years to a hundred thousand dollars today (figure-A). The obvious reason: Companies simply hire fewer employees as more work is done by outside contractors, usually in Asia.

The job machine breakdown isn't just in computers. Consider alternative energy, an emerging industry where there's plenty of innovation. Photovoltaics, for example, are a U.S. invention. Their use in home energy applications was also pioneered by the U.S. Last year, I decided to do my bit for energy conservation and set out to equip my house with solar power. My wife and I talked with four local solar firms. As part of our due diligence, I checked where they get their photovoltaic panels—the key part of the system. All the panels they use come from China. A Silicon Valley company sells equipment used to manufacture photo-active films. They ship close to 10 times more machines to China than to manufacturers in the U.S., and this gap is growing (figure-D). Not surprisingly, U.S. employment in the making of photovoltaic films and panels is perhaps 10,000—just a few percent of estimated worldwide employment.

There's more at stake than exported jobs. With some technologies, both scaling and innovation take place overseas.

Such is the case with advanced batteries. It has taken years and many false starts, but finally we are about to witness mass-produced electric cars and trucks. They all rely on lithium-ion batteries. What microprocessors are to computing, batteries are to electric vehicles. Unlike with microprocessors, the U.S. share of lithium-ion battery production is tiny (figure-E).

That's a problem. A new industry needs an effective ecosystem in which technology knowhow accumulates, experience builds on experience, and close relationships develop between supplier and customer. The U.S. lost its lead in batteries 30 years ago when it stopped making consumer electronics devices. Whoever made batteries then gained the exposure and relationships needed to learn to supply batteries for the more demanding laptop PC market, and after that, for the even more demanding automobile market. U.S. companies did not participate in the first phase and consequently were not in the running for all that followed. I doubt they will ever catch up.


p.s. writing this from Vermont, near Middlebury, not the heart of Sanders' country but close enough to feel the Bern.
If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
1

  • 1073 Pages +
  • « First
  • 93
  • 94
  • 95
  • 96
  • 97
  • Last »
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

65 User(s) are reading this topic
2 members, 63 guests, 0 anonymous users

  1. pilowsky,
  2. hrothgar