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Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? Bernie Sanders wants to know who owns America?

#16021 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2020-August-03, 13:48

View PostWinstonm, on 2020-August-03, 12:58, said:

How long before Trump turns on AG Barr for Barr telling him the president had absolute immunity?

Not happening.
If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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#16022 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2020-August-03, 14:50

View Posty66, on 2020-August-03, 13:48, said:

Not happening.

To clarify, not until the Grifter in Chief is convicted of a crime, handcuffed, and sent to prison.
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#16023 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2020-August-03, 21:48

Noah Smith at Bloomberg said:

At this point, Trump's main election pitch is that all the stuff that his supporters don't like about his presidency would be EVEN WORSE under Biden.

"In Joe Biden's America, you and your family will never, ever be safe," Trump says during a tele-rally

Massive protests against Trump's stormtrooper force? Civil unrest and a breakdown of social trust? A constant feeling of neverending crisis?

Trump caused or exacerbated all of these. But he's telling his supporters that he's actually a bulwark AGAINST these things.

Of course most of his supporters will buy it. They are deeply attached to the narrative of Trump as the Last Bastion against everything they fear.

Conservative friends I talk to are wild with fear about the collapse of everything they hold dear under a Biden presidency.

The more Trump causes and exacerbates civil unrest, the more his supporters will desperately cling to him as the Only Last Final Defense against that unrest.

The worse he gets, the tighter they cling.

Which reminds me of Harry Harlow's attachment experiments from the 1950s.

Harlow experimented with baby monkeys, raising them to think a wire mock-up of a monkey was their mother...

These 1950s experiments showed us the trauma of parent-child separation. Now experts say they're too unethical to repeatóeven on monkeys.

He designed a fake mother that would actually stab the baby monkeys, or blast them with cold air, if the babies attempted to hug it.

(Needless to say, this experiment would be considered highly unethical today.)

What do you think the baby monkeys did when the fake mother stabbed them and froze them?

They clung ever more tightly to it.

Because it was the only safety they could imagine. The only comfort they could seek. Even though it was the one hurting them.

Trump is the fake mother. He stirs up and provokes civil unrest that puts his supporters in danger. He lets the pandemic rage unopposed. He stokes social divisions. He puts his supporters in dire peril.

And the more he hurts them, the more his supporters cling to him.

Why do Trump's supporters cling to him ever more tightly the more he hurts them?

Same reason the baby monkey clung to the fake mother.

Because there is no one and nothing else to cling to.

The smart thing for all conservatives and Republicans to do would be to dump Trump and elect Biden. This would remove the biggest irritant causing social unrest, and allow the beginning of a movement to restore order.

But most will not do this smart thing.

Thus, Trump has every incentive to do things that scare and hurt his own supporters. Because he is their fake mother, he knows that hurting and scaring his "children" will only boost their desperate need for his illusory promise of protection.

Republicans will find the courage to throw mama from the train. I feel their pain.
If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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#16024 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2020-August-03, 21:48

Noah Smith at Bloomberg said:

At this point, Trump's main election pitch is that all the stuff that his supporters don't like about his presidency would be EVEN WORSE under Biden.

"In Joe Biden's America, you and your family will never, ever be safe," Trump says during a tele-rally

Massive protests against Trump's stormtrooper force? Civil unrest and a breakdown of social trust? A constant feeling of neverending crisis?

Trump caused or exacerbated all of these. But he's telling his supporters that he's actually a bulwark AGAINST these things.

Of course most of his supporters will buy it. They are deeply attached to the narrative of Trump as the Last Bastion against everything they fear.

Conservative friends I talk to are wild with fear about the collapse of everything they hold dear under a Biden presidency.

The more Trump causes and exacerbates civil unrest, the more his supporters will desperately cling to him as the Only Last Final Defense against that unrest.

The worse he gets, the tighter they cling.

Which reminds me of Harry Harlow's attachment experiments from the 1950s.

Harlow experimented with baby monkeys, raising them to think a wire mock-up of a monkey was their mother...

These 1950s experiments showed us the trauma of parent-child separation. Now experts say they're too unethical to repeat—even on monkeys.

He designed a fake mother that would actually stab the baby monkeys, or blast them with cold air, if the babies attempted to hug it.

(Needless to say, this experiment would be considered highly unethical today.)

What do you think the baby monkeys did when the fake mother stabbed them and froze them?

They clung ever more tightly to it.

Because it was the only safety they could imagine. The only comfort they could seek. Even though it was the one hurting them.

Trump is the fake mother. He stirs up and provokes civil unrest that puts his supporters in danger. He lets the pandemic rage unopposed. He stokes social divisions. He puts his supporters in dire peril.

And the more he hurts them, the more his supporters cling to him.

Why do Trump's supporters cling to him ever more tightly the more he hurts them?

Same reason the baby monkey clung to the fake mother.

Because there is no one and nothing else to cling to.

The smart thing for all conservatives and Republicans to do would be to dump Trump and elect Biden. This would remove the biggest irritant causing social unrest, and allow the beginning of a movement to restore order.

But most will not do this smart thing.

Thus, Trump has every incentive to do things that scare and hurt his own supporters. Because he is their fake mother, he knows that hurting and scaring his "children" will only boost their desperate need for his illusory promise of protection.

Mama, have you seen the view from the end of the train?
If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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#16025 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2020-August-04, 03:36

View Posty66, on 2020-August-03, 21:48, said:

Republicans will find the courage to throw mama from the train. I feel their pain.

The Grifter in Chief has 91% approval ratings from Republicans in a Gallup poll from a week ago. If you think any of those 91% are not going to vote for the Manchurian President, there is nothing in the polling to suggest anything like that. Maybe some percentage of the tiny 9% who disapprove may vote for somebody else, or not vote, but there won't be many.

78% of Republicans approve of Typhoid Donald's handling of the coronavirus pandemic in a 538 poll. 78%!!! :o Now I can see how most Republicans have tremendous support for his racism and white supremacist positions. He does represent their views perfectly. And I can see how they like his choices for judges, and his lip service to the evangelicals. But there is a complete break from reality and facts if anybody thinks the Grifter in Chief is actually doing even a barely adequate job in handling the coronavirus pandemic.

So I don't feel their pain at all. Maybe Democrats and Independents need to throw the Republicans from the train and let them have their own country and their own reality.
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#16026 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2020-August-04, 08:22

Jonathan Swan at Axios said:

Swan: Oh, youíre doing death as a proportion of cases. Iím talking about death as a proportion of population. Thatís where the U.S. is really bad. Much worse than South Korea, Germany, etc.

Trump: You canít do that.

Swan: Why canít I do that?

https://twitter.com/...497186489348096

If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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#16027 User is offline   shyams 

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Posted 2020-August-04, 08:51

The tragic part of these things is that everyone (media, administration, Dem luminaries) is spending lots of effort/energy on defining the truth or creating a narrative aligned to their own world view. No one seems to be doing anything to reduce the suffering or improve the response to the Covid crisis.
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#16028 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2020-August-04, 08:57

View Postshyams, on 2020-August-04, 08:51, said:

The tragic part of these things is that everyone (media, administration, Dem luminaries) is spending lots of effort/energy on defining the truth or creating a narrative aligned to their own world view. No one seems to be doing anything to reduce the suffering or improve the response to the Covid crisis.


There is only one megaphone and one person shouting lies and that is Donald Trump. Everyone else is part of an echo chamber.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#16029 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2020-August-04, 12:01

The two faces of Donald Trump:

Quote

President Donald Trump ramped up his baseless attacks on mail-in voting late Monday by threatening to issue an executive order curbing the practice ahead of the November elections, a move rights groups and experts said would be a flagrant violation of the U.S. Constitution.






Quote

President Donald Trump on Tuesday said that he wanted "all" people to vote by mail in Florida.

"Whether you call it Vote by Mail or Absentee Voting, in Florida the election system is Safe and Secure, Tried and True," Trump wrote on Twitter. "Florida's Voting system has been cleaned up (we defeated Democrats attempts at change), so in Florida I encourage all to request a Ballot & Vote by Mail!"




So, to recap - Democrats and Democratic states are not allowed to vote by mail but Florida's Republicans are encouraged to do so. I get it - he's anti-American democracy. There is a word for that.....
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#16030 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2020-August-04, 12:18

View Postshyams, on 2020-August-04, 08:51, said:

The tragic part of these things is that everyone (media, administration, Dem luminaries) is spending lots of effort/energy on defining the truth or creating a narrative aligned to their own world view. No one seems to be doing anything to reduce the suffering or improve the response to the Covid crisis.


Yes, that is so. It's a difficult time. It has become clear that any such efforts will have to take place without the help of our president. If others, working around him, have any success art all he will of course take credit for it. But as a leader in this crisis, he is worse than useless.

A major problem right now is education for the young. Most of us see this as complicated. Not Trump. For him the solution is to send everyone back to school, cut funding for any system that refuses, and announce that everything will be ok. The virus was going to go away. Like a miracle. Well, it's a hoax. Or maybe we should stop testing so much . Or something. But not his fault, he explained that it would go away and for some reason it didn't. He did his part, the virus didn't do it's part. Once upon a ti,e you had to go to a carnival to see someone talk like this.

We are on our own. The president is useless.
Ken
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#16031 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2020-August-04, 12:45

View Postshyams, on 2020-August-04, 08:51, said:

The tragic part of these things is that everyone (media, administration, Dem luminaries) is spending lots of effort/energy on defining the truth or creating a narrative aligned to their own world view. No one seems to be doing anything to reduce the suffering or improve the response to the Covid crisis.

Democratic and a very few Republican led states have done their best to combat coronavirus in their states. The fact of the matter is that state and local government are not set up to battle epidemics/pandemics that are national in scope. They don't have the resources or budget to be effective like a Federal government response could be. One thing to note. State and local governments are required by law to have balanced budgets, unlike the Federal government which literally owns the printing presses and can literally print as much money as they can. The coronavirus has blown huge holes in state and local government budgets in 2 ways. First is the cost of actually combating coronavirus, medically and socially. 2nd is greatly reduced income from taxes and fees as businesses have reduced income or go out of of business, and residents have (greatly) reduced income because their jobs have disappeared or work has been reduced.

In a so called unitary presidency country like the US, basically nothing can be done at the Federal level without the president's approval. Unless Republicans in Congress were willing to join with Democrats to force certain actions (that can't happen because the president would send a mean tweet their way), nothing can or will be changed in the coronavirus response. Democrats and the media can complain all they want but unless the president decides he wants to expend political capital to actually put in place the most effective anti-coronavirus measures, we are doomed to be in the place we are in now until there is an effective vaccine.

Or we can drink Clorox smoothies, pop hydroxychloroquine pills, and take UV light enemas like Typhoid Donald suggests.
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#16032 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2020-August-04, 13:20

View Postkenberg, on 2020-August-04, 12:18, said:

Yes, that is so. It's a difficult time. It has become clear that any such efforts will have to take place without the help of our president. If others, working around him, have any success art all he will of course take credit for it. But as a leader in this crisis, he is worse than useless.

A major problem right now is education for the young. Most of us see this as complicated. Not Trump. For him the solution is to send everyone back to school, cut funding for any system that refuses, and announce that everything will be ok. The virus was going to go away. Like a miracle. Well, it's a hoax. Or maybe we should stop testing so much . Or something. But not his fault, he explained that it would go away and for some reason it didn't. He did his part, the virus didn't do it's part. Once upon a ti,e you had to go to a carnival to see someone talk like this.

We are on our own. The president is useless.

Maybe we should fire all the coroners in the US and close all the funeral homes. No more causes of death, death certificates, and the death toll from COVID-19 would start to approach zero right away. If we could stop all coronavirus testing which would result in no new cases, we would completely stop coronavirus in its tracks. Who needs a vaccine?
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#16033 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2020-August-04, 13:34

By coincidence I came home and saw that some states are getting together.


https://www.washingt...age%2Fstory-ans

Yes, this is good.

Back a couple of hundred years, 1787 comes to mind, we thought it would be useful to have a federal government that could respond to some national problems. I am sure they did not anticipate the total incompetence that we see today. Naive of them, I guess.
Ken
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#16034 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2020-August-04, 15:50

View Postkenberg, on 2020-August-04, 13:34, said:

By coincidence I came home and saw that some states are getting together.


https://www.washingt...age%2Fstory-ans

Yes, this is good.

Back a couple of hundred years, 1787 comes to mind, we thought it would be useful to have a federal government that could respond to some national problems. I am sure they did not anticipate the total incompetence that we see today. Naive of them, I guess.


1776 comes to mind - only need 7 more states and we can have a whole new country. Posted Image
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#16035 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2020-August-05, 05:33

Essential viewing (in full) for all US voters and anyone with an interest in American politics.
(-: Zel :-)

half-wit -- Chas_P the racist
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#16036 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2020-August-05, 07:50

View Postjohnu, on 2020-August-04, 12:45, said:

The fact of the matter is that state and local government are not set up to battle epidemics/pandemics that are national in scope. They don't have the resources or budget to be effective like a Federal government response could be.

True. But that does not absolve states and local governments from their responsibility to make sure states, local governments and the feds have a credible plan for responding to a pandemic threat which we obviously did not have when we needed it. It's encouraging to see the governors of Maryland, Virginia and other states working together on the testing front (see WaPo story kenberg linked) now that we are in month 6 of a full blown crisis. No doubt we will be somewhat better prepared for the next one.
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#16037 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2020-August-05, 09:58

View Posty66, on 2020-August-05, 07:50, said:

True. But that does not absolve states and local governments from their responsibility to make sure states, local governments and the feds have a credible plan for responding to a pandemic threat which we obviously did not have when we needed it. It's encouraging to see the governors of Maryland, Virginia and other states working together on the testing front (see WaPo story kenberg linked) now that we are in month 6 of a full blown crisis. No doubt we will be somewhat better prepared for the next one.


Whether of not we will be better prepared in the future depends entirely on the make-up of the government at that future time. Obama left a roadmap for handling pandemics - Donald Trump and John Bolton ripped it apart as a waste of resources.


This is and has always been the flaw in Republican/conservative ideology - that running the government should be the same as running a business when the government is the only entity with deep enough pockets to provide a plan and the monetary backing for black swan events. The hue and cry over deficits and the national debt is nothing but red herrings to distract from maximizing profits for businesses.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#16038 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2020-August-05, 10:09

Anyone who thinks Donald Trump is the only problem is not keeping up with the world:

Quote



Germany has a problem. For years, politicians and security chiefs rejected the notion of any far-right infiltration of the security services, speaking only of ďindividual cases.Ē The idea of networks was dismissed. The superiors of those exposed as extremists were protected. Guns and ammunition disappeared from military stockpiles.

The government is now waking up. Cases of far-right extremists in the military and police, some hoarding weapons and explosives, have multiplied alarmingly. The nationís top intelligence officials and senior military commanders are moving to confront a problem that has become too dangerous to ignore.





"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#16039 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2020-August-05, 11:28

View Posty66, on 2020-August-05, 07:50, said:

True. But that does not absolve states and local governments from their responsibility to make sure states, local governments and the feds have a credible plan for responding to a pandemic threat which we obviously did not have when we needed it. It's encouraging to see the governors of Maryland, Virginia and other states working together on the testing front (see WaPo story kenberg linked) now that we are in month 6 of a full blown crisis. No doubt we will be somewhat better prepared for the next one.

States and local governments have absolutely no control over the Federal government's lack of any coherent plan for a pandemic. Just like Portland had no way to stop the Manchurian President from sending in Federal secret police forces to Portland and creating mayhem in the streets. How do you expect them to have any influence whether there is a Federal pandemic plan???

As far as the Maryland-Virginia consortium plan to work together on getting testing supplies, remember back in May when a consortium of 7 NE states came up with a plan to buy PPEs? That was 3 months ago and still there is no national PPE plan. Yes, the states can band together to form bigger buying groups, but they still have to compete with Feds. The Federal government can institute controls against price gouging and buy at wholesale prices directly from the manufacturers. Even if the states band together into various groups, they are still competing among themselves, as well as the Feds, as well as other countries for limited supplies since the Grifter in Chief won't invoke the Defense Production Act for these supplies.

And state and local governments have limited budgets for these things. Those budgets are being shredded by the economic effects of the pandemic.

I don't see states banding together as a positive sign. I see it as a sign of desperation as a result of failure by the Federal government to provide leadership.

Without strong Federal leadership, you have the spectacle of Maryland going through hoops trying to protect a private shipment of N95 masks from being confiscated by the Feds. Instead of N95 masks, you can substitute COVID-19 testing supplies of all kinds.
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#16040 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2020-August-05, 12:24

View PostWinstonm, on 2020-August-05, 09:58, said:


Whether of not we will be better prepared in the future depends entirely on the make-up of the government at that future time. Obama left a roadmap for handling pandemics - Donald Trump and John Bolton ripped it apart as a waste of resources.


This is and has always been the flaw in Republican/conservative ideology - that running the government should be the same as running a business when the government is the only entity with deep enough pockets to provide a plan and the monetary backing for black swan events. The hue and cry over deficits and the national debt is nothing but red herrings to distract from maximizing profits for businesses.

Trump did not invent governing by train wreck. But he has definitely taken it to a new level.

I would not impute Trump's moronic approach to all conservatives. The Bush II administration took pandemic planning pretty seriously. I would be surprised if the Obama playbook is much more than a bunch of tweaks to a Bush II administration playbook.

A playbook is obviously only as good as the actual types of experience it's based on and the extent to which it reflects a reality of preparedness based on actual relevant experience, thorough testing and leaders with good judgment.
If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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