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Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? Bernie Sanders wants to know who owns America?

#14881 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2020-March-10, 15:35

View Postkenberg, on 2020-March-10, 11:02, said:

I think it would have helped. When the issue first arose, long before October, she could have acknowledged error and made sure all errors were covered. When it re-surfaced in October, that might have been too late. The opportunity had passed her by.

Except that she did apologise. Over and over again. Starting in September 2015.

Moreover, she did have her lawyers turn over all work-related emails to the state department. That was early/mid 2015. That's all she can do - she cannot turn over state department emails to the public on her own, that's not her decision.

Quote

Non-crazies look at what happened and say "Can't she do something right? Turning over emails is not a highly difficult task, she should have been able to get this right".

You are proving my point. She did turn over all her emails, yet somehow Ken Berg is convinced that she didn't. I am not aware of any evidence that the Weiner emails were not emails the FBI had already seen. But in Ken Berg's mind they are, "proving" it was Hillary's fault for not "putting this issue away".

Obviously, it's is pointless to argue about 2016. Except I am 100% convinced it will repeat itself. There will be an "issue" dominating news coverage about the 2020 Democratic nominee. And somehow, the Democratic candidate will be unable to put the issue away. Just proving a lack of judgement on their side, because if only they had done X or Y or Z, the issue would have gone away.
And the same will happen in 2024. And in 2028. And in 2032. And at some point, some voters, and perhaps even some journalists, will learn that just because an issue doesn't "go away" doesn't prove that there is merit to the topic. That you actually have to look at the merits yourself, and not just treat is as an issue because everyone else treats it as an issue. Because if you do that, you cede your agenda to Fox news and twitter trolls.

https://www.vox.com/...k-gap-explained
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
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#14882 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2020-March-10, 19:24

View Postcherdano, on 2020-March-10, 15:35, said:

Except that she did apologise. Over and over again. Starting in September 2015.

Moreover, she did have her lawyers turn over all work-related emails to the state department. That was early/mid 2015. That's all she can do - she cannot turn over state department emails to the public on her own, that's not her decision.


You are proving my point. She did turn over all her emails, yet somehow Ken Berg is convinced that she didn't. I am not aware of any evidence that the Weiner emails were not emails the FBI had already seen. But in Ken Berg's mind they are, "proving" it was Hillary's fault for not "putting this issue away".

Obviously, it's is pointless to argue about 2016. Except I am 100% convinced it will repeat itself. There will be an "issue" dominating news coverage about the 2020 Democratic nominee. And somehow, the Democratic candidate will be unable to put the issue away. Just proving a lack of judgement on their side, because if only they had done X or Y or Z, the issue would have gone away.
And the same will happen in 2024. And in 2028. And in 2032. And at some point, some voters, and perhaps even some journalists, will learn that just because an issue doesn't "go away" doesn't prove that there is merit to the topic. That you actually have to look at the merits yourself, and not just treat is as an issue because everyone else treats it as an issue. Because if you do that, you cede your agenda to Fox news and twitter trolls.

https://www.vox.com/...k-gap-explained


Many years ago a superb car salesman friend of mine told me that you can say anything to anyone as long as you smile. The difference between Clinton and Trump is that Clinton did not have the reputation of joking around, while everyone knows Trump IS a joke, so nothing he says can be taken seriously.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#14883 User is online   kenberg 

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Posted 2020-March-10, 19:50

I will re-phrase. I suggest the JB crew, assuming he is nominated, give some serious thought to the HC email disaster. If, after giving it serious thought, they decide that HC did absolutely the best she could, that there was nothing else she could have done, then I suggest they go back and think some more.

And now, Tuesday evening, I think we can delete "assuming".
Ken
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#14884 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2020-March-10, 20:13

I will just add that if Clinton had taken some of kenberg's advice in 2016, this thread would have ended 3+ years ago. Lame apologies and coming clean are not the same thing.
If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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#14885 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2020-March-10, 20:19

View Postkenberg, on 2020-March-10, 19:50, said:

I suggest the JB crew, assuming he is nominated, give some serious thought to the HC email disaster. If, after giving it serious thought, they decide that HC did absolutely the best she could, that there was nothing else she could have done, then I suggest they go back and think some more.

Yeah but what could she have done? Avoid the issue? Refuse to apology? Apology even more? Blame someone else? Give some non-apology? "Yes it was a mistake but compared to the fact that Trump did this and this and this it was trivial?"

Winston is probably right that HC was just held to much higher standards than Trump. So is the solution to somehow (magically?) avoid being held to high standards?
Can't have a baby if you do it contraclockwise! --- Jlall
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#14886 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2020-March-10, 21:26

She could have called Richard Haynes.
If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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#14887 User is online   kenberg 

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Posted 2020-March-11, 07:54

I gather Biden is all but anointed. I can't say that I am exactly ecstatic, but I think he was the best choice. Well, probably I hope maybe the best choice. I'll have a talk with myself and perhaps get more inspired. Ecstasy is not needed but inspired would be nice.
Ken
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#14888 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2020-March-11, 08:36

“This is an opportunity that you just don’t see very often in politics. ... We have a chance to run the table in November,” James Carville says on Today, Explained at Vox.
If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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#14889 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2020-March-11, 08:58

View Postkenberg, on 2020-March-11, 07:54, said:

I gather Biden is all but anointed. I can't say that I am exactly ecstatic, but I think he was the best choice. Well, probably I hope maybe the best choice. I'll have a talk with myself and perhaps get more inspired. Ecstasy is not needed but inspired would be nice.

If you think you are uninspired now, Ken, wait until the real campaign starts. It is going to be a precise re-run of 2016, complete with manufactured smears, voter suppression, Russian interference, open racism/ableism/religious intolerance and lots and lots of "Us against the politicians". As elections get tighter, campaigns pretty much always get dirtier. And 2020 is highly likely to be a close election. Expect to be generally demoralised about the whole political process come November.
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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#14890 User is online   kenberg 

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Posted 2020-March-11, 09:10

View PostZelandakh, on 2020-March-11, 08:58, said:

If you think you are uninspired now, Ken, wait until the real campaign starts. It is going to be a precise re-run of 2016, complete with manufactured smears, voter suppression, Russian interference, open racism/ableism/religious intolerance and lots and lots of "Us against the politicians". As elections get tighter, campaigns pretty much always get dirtier. And 2020 is highly likely to be a close election. Expect to be generally demoralised about the whole political process come November.


Just the sort of cheering up I was looking for! Most unfortunately, I suspect that you are right. So open another bottle of wine and deal the cards.

Ken
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#14891 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2020-March-11, 09:10

View Posty66, on 2020-March-11, 08:36, said:

“This is an opportunity that you just don’t see very often in politics. ... We have a chance to run the table in November,” James Carville says on Today, Explained at Vox.


That reminds me of something I was thinking about the other day. My idea was that the Republican party has evolved into a coalition of extremists, each small group with their own personal agenda but held together by a contempt for anyone who disagrees or threatens those individual agendas, be it gun rights, abortion, small government, white privilege, Christianity, yada, yada, yadi. That is why they are so difficult to defeat as it is personal with them, and they go vote, and they vote as a block. Chipping away at the core of that voting block won't be easy, but steering people toward better sources of information would go a long way in that mission.

It\s not who is John Galt? It's where is Walter Cronkite?

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#14892 User is online   johnu 

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Posted 2020-March-11, 13:23

Who could have guessed?

Exclusive: White House told federal health agency to classify coronavirus deliberations - sources

Quote

The White House has ordered federal health officials to treat top-level coronavirus meetings as classified, an unusual step that has restricted information and hampered the U.S. government’s response to the contagion, according to four Trump administration officials.


Quote

Staffers without security clearances, including government experts, were excluded from the interagency meetings, which included video conference calls, the sources said.

“We had some very critical people who did not have security clearances who could not go,” one official said. “These should not be classified meetings. It was unnecessary.”

The sources said the National Security Council (NSC), which advises the president on security issues, ordered the classification.“This came directly from the White House,” one official said.


So they excluded government experts who may have had critical insight in solving the COVID 19 problem from to secret meetings? I feel safer already.

I also approve of the Manchurian President not allowing people to leave infected cruise ships to be treated in US hospitals. Each infected person adding to the virus statistics would be a stain on the political record of Putin's Puppet, which by extension, would be a stain on America. MAGA!
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#14893 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2020-March-11, 15:07

From The Democrats Aren't in the Mood for Your Revolution by Michelle Cottle at NYT:

Quote

Mr. Biden has been happy to position himself as a caretaker. “Look, I view myself as a bridge, not as anything else,” he told a crowd in Detroit on Monday, in an appearance alongside his former primary rivals Senators Kamala Harris and Cory Booker, and Michigan’s Democratic governor, Gretchen Whitmer. “There’s an entire generation of leaders you saw standing behind me,” he said. “They are the future of this country.”

This primary season is not over, but the math is grim for Mr. Sanders. Andrew Yang, who ended his presidential run last month, noted as much when, not long after Michigan was called, he offered his official endorsement of Mr. Biden while doing on-air commentary for CNN. Much of the night’s commentary, in fact, revolved around the assumption that Mr. Biden would secure the nomination and speculation as to how he could stitch together the party’s feuding factions.

Many Democrats are understandably nervous. Mr. Sanders has never been an especially gracious competitor. Belligerence is central to his brand, and he is a master practitioner of grievance politics, rallying disaffected voters around the message that the system is hopelessly rigged against them — and him.

Since the race turned against him, Mr. Sanders has been busy blaming everyone else for his troubles: the media, young voters and, most pointedly, the Democratic establishment. When the voters of South Carolina saved Mr. Biden’s candidacy, Mr. Sanders’s first impulse was to complain that “the establishment” had conspired to bring him down. That was also his second, third and fourth impulses.

That did not sit well with many black leaders and voters, who Mr. Sanders seemed to be implying had been snookered or brainwashed. Some of his more animated supporters took an even nastier tone on social media. As an outreach strategy, it was, um, counterintuitive.

Mr. Biden recognizes the challenge now before him, as was evident when he spoke to staff members and supporters in Philadelphia a little before 11 p.m. on Tuesday. Unlike the euphoria displayed on Super Tuesday, the candidate’s tone was subdued. This may have been in part a nod to the coronavirus crisis. He opened by mentioning the canceled rally in Ohio. But he also clearly grasped that this was no time to gloat. The closer he comes to clinching the nomination, the more he must think about how to bring at least a portion of Mr. Sanders’s supporters along with him. On Tuesday night, he was in extend-an-olive-branch mode, with much talk of unity and healing.

“We need you, we want you, there’s a place in our campaign for each of you,” he coaxed any and all listeners. He explicitly thanked Mr. Sanders and his supporters for all their hard work and passion, stressing that they all “share a common goal” and that “together we’ll defeat Donald Trump.”

He ticked through a handful of policy aims, from expanding health care coverage to bringing the N.R.A. to heel. But even that was in the service of his message of unification. “There’s not a single thing we cannot do if we do it together,” he proclaimed. It was a speech meant to comfort more than to electrify.

Mr. Biden has never been the most exciting choice in this race. But that is kind of the point.

Gretchen Whitmer? That's a name we may hear more often.
If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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#14894 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2020-March-11, 15:07

From The Democrats Aren't in the Mood for Your Revolution by Michelle Cottle at NYT:

Quote

Mr. Biden has been happy to position himself as a caretaker. “Look, I view myself as a bridge, not as anything else,” he told a crowd in Detroit on Monday, in an appearance alongside his former primary rivals Senators Kamala Harris and Cory Booker, and Michigan’s Democratic governor, Gretchen Whitmer. “There’s an entire generation of leaders you saw standing behind me,” he said. “They are the future of this country.”

This primary season is not over, but the math is grim for Mr. Sanders. Andrew Yang, who ended his presidential run last month, noted as much when, not long after Michigan was called, he offered his official endorsement of Mr. Biden while doing on-air commentary for CNN. Much of the night’s commentary, in fact, revolved around the assumption that Mr. Biden would secure the nomination and speculation as to how he could stitch together the party’s feuding factions.

Many Democrats are understandably nervous. Mr. Sanders has never been an especially gracious competitor. Belligerence is central to his brand, and he is a master practitioner of grievance politics, rallying disaffected voters around the message that the system is hopelessly rigged against them — and him.

Since the race turned against him, Mr. Sanders has been busy blaming everyone else for his troubles: the media, young voters and, most pointedly, the Democratic establishment. When the voters of South Carolina saved Mr. Biden’s candidacy, Mr. Sanders’s first impulse was to complain that “the establishment” had conspired to bring him down. That was also his second, third and fourth impulses.

That did not sit well with many black leaders and voters, who Mr. Sanders seemed to be implying had been snookered or brainwashed. Some of his more animated supporters took an even nastier tone on social media. As an outreach strategy, it was, um, counterintuitive.

Mr. Biden recognizes the challenge now before him, as was evident when he spoke to staff members and supporters in Philadelphia a little before 11 p.m. on Tuesday. Unlike the euphoria displayed on Super Tuesday, the candidate’s tone was subdued. This may have been in part a nod to the coronavirus crisis. He opened by mentioning the canceled rally in Ohio. But he also clearly grasped that this was no time to gloat. The closer he comes to clinching the nomination, the more he must think about how to bring at least a portion of Mr. Sanders’s supporters along with him. On Tuesday night, he was in extend-an-olive-branch mode, with much talk of unity and healing.

“We need you, we want you, there’s a place in our campaign for each of you,” he coaxed any and all listeners. He explicitly thanked Mr. Sanders and his supporters for all their hard work and passion, stressing that they all “share a common goal” and that “together we’ll defeat Donald Trump.”

He ticked through a handful of policy aims, from expanding health care coverage to bringing the N.R.A. to heel. But even that was in the service of his message of unification. “There’s not a single thing we cannot do if we do it together,” he proclaimed. It was a speech meant to comfort more than to electrify.

Mr. Biden has never been the most exciting choice in this race. But that is kind of the point.

Gretchen Whitmer? That's a name we may hear more often.
If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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#14895 User is offline   shyams 

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Posted 2020-March-11, 15:52

View Posty66, on 2020-March-11, 15:07, said:



I am not American and I have no say (or substantial interest) in your country's elections. However, I strongly feel that Biden as Democratic nominee will definitely ensure the reelection of Trump in November.

The only thing that can derail that outcome is the potential disaster from Coronavirus. Given the misery such an event will bring, I will pray for no disaster even if it means 8 years of Trump.

PS: Does anyone watch Rising with Krystal and Saagar on YouTube? I have recently begun watching their daily shows and I must say they sound refreshingly different from mainstream media.
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#14896 User is online   johnu 

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Posted 2020-March-12, 00:52

View Postshyams, on 2020-March-11, 15:52, said:

I am not American and I have no say (or substantial interest) in your country's elections. However, I strongly feel that Biden as Democratic nominee will definitely ensure the reelection of Trump in November.

Really? Who do you feel the Democrats should have nominated who would have been the strongest candidate? I liked Warren, but the polls have said that Biden had the best polling numbers for various reasons.
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#14897 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2020-March-12, 04:05

View Postjohnu, on 2020-March-12, 00:52, said:

Really? Who do you feel the Democrats should have nominated who would have been the strongest candidate? I liked Warren, but the polls have said that Biden had the best polling numbers for various reasons.

I think both Buttigieg and Klobuchar would, after getting past the name recognition issue, have had at least as much appeal to moderate Republicans as Biden, albeit to somewhat different portions of the population. Their issue was not one of electability so much as not connecting with the African-American demographic. And you cannot become the Democratic nomination without that key support. Biden's association with Obama plays very well to Dems; not so much with Reps, particularly the borderline racist working class voters that Biden will need to beat dodgy Donald.

Most of all, DJT got elected primarily because he is seen as someone not from the inner establishment of the political class in the way that Clinton was. Biden is about as establishment as you could get in the Dem field of nominees. As I posted before, once we get into the campaign proper it is going to be cast into an "Us against the political establishment" light. And you won't be able to watch TV for more than 15 minutes without hearing either Burisma or Ukraine mentioned somewhere. When the campaign turns ugly, and it will, Biden's team are either going to have to react negatively, in which case the charge that he is "not really nice at all, just a typical politician" will easily stick, or do a Dukakis and be accused of being a walkover, which is already the impression from many after the Dem debates.

The truth is that while Biden's numbers look good out of the door, just as did HC's, it is extremely easy to see how to campaign effectively against him for a candidate like DJT. One can hope that the American people are sensible enough to see that this is not someone that you want in the WH for a full 8 years - 4 years to send a message and shake the system up a bit is plenty! - but so far the evidence for that being the case is slim. My estimate for re-election at this point is well over 50% and I suspect that is the case for almost all unbiased observers.
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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#14898 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2020-March-12, 06:16

Like a few others above, I am not an American, so feel eminently qualified to offer the following opinion

I can't see any result other than a Trump victory later in the year
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#14899 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2020-March-12, 08:02

Quote

Minutes after President Donald Trump delivered a major address Wednesday night on the US response to the novel coronavirus, his own administration and other US officials publicly contradicted three important claims from his speech.

Trump and the officials quickly walked back his nationally televised statements that 1) the administration would ban all travel from Europe to the US, 2) the ban would also apply to trade and cargo between the US and Europe, and 3) major health insurers would waive co-pays on coronavirus treatment.


Fortunately, we are being led off the cliff by a very stable genius who knows more than the experts about everything.

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#14900 User is offline   shyams 

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Posted 2020-March-12, 08:29

View PostWinstonm, on 2020-March-12, 08:02, said:



Fortunately, we are being led off the cliff by a very stable genius who knows more than the experts about everything.

I suspect Mr. Trump misspoke with regards to (2) --- I guess the written text included the work NOT apply and he simply misread the text.

With regards to (1), the clarifications from the US administration are clear. All EU travel (excluding UK) are banned. Ireland (not part of Schengen) is not banned --- which the speech did not clarify. But, he was not wrong in essence when he said all EU travel is banned.
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