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Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? Bernie Sanders wants to know who owns America?

#13201 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2019-July-20, 14:41

View PostWinstonm, on 2019-July-20, 12:32, said:

The problem is not Trump but the millions who find his message appealing, who band together at rallies, enraptured by a common embrace of hatred of "the other".


Yes, but a very important part of the solution is to realize that sometimes people change their minds. People who go to rallies and chant, no matter the rally and no matter the chant, probably will not be open to discussion. Others are, and if the Ds want to win in 2020 they had better keep that in mind.
Ken
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#13202 User is offline   ldrews 

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Posted 2019-July-20, 18:18

View PostWinstonm, on 2019-July-20, 12:32, said:

The problem is not Trump but the millions who find his message appealing, who band together at rallies, enraptured by a common embrace of hatred of "the other".


Seems to me that you are the hater. Certainly most of your posts in this forum seem to come from hate.

I am a Trump supporter. However I have not attended any rallies. But from my point of view, Trump has much better policies than the Democracts who currently seem to have nothing. And after 2 years of Trump the economy and working conditions for the populace appear to be much improved. Unemployment is at record lows, wages are rising faster than inflation, stock market is at record highs, trade agreements are being improved for the US. ISIS Caliphate has been eliminated. North Korea is negotiating rather than threatening with nukes. China is negotiating.

I certainly don't hate others. Things are just better.
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#13203 User is offline   Chas_P 

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Posted 2019-July-20, 18:43

View PostWinstonm, on 2019-July-18, 07:05, said:

To be able to see, you have to take your head out of your ass.


Head removed, and I still see nothing in "‘We will never be a Socialist or Communist Country. IF YOU ARE NOT HAPPY HERE, YOU CAN LEAVE! It is your choice, and your choice alone. This is about love for America. Certain people HATE our Country…They are anti-Israel, pro Al-Qaeda, and comment on the 9/11 attack, “some people did something.” Radical Left Democrats want Open Borders, which means drugs, crime, human trafficking, and much more. Our Country is Free, Beautiful and Very Successful. If you hate our Country, or if you are not happy here, you can leave!’

that has anything to do with how much light your skin reflects.

Quote


To say that the Democrats are obsessed with race these days is the equivalent of saying the sky is blue.
I'm a racist. You're a racist. Donald Trump's a racist. Nancy Pelosi was a racist until she attacked Trump for racism. Your neighbor's a racist. Your insurance broker's a racist. Your dentist's a racist as well as your periodontist. All white males are racist. Some white females are racists, especially those married to white males. Everywhere a racist.
Never mind that many of those people have no history of racism. It doesn't matter. Never mind that their families came here in 1923 to flee the Armenian Holocaust or mass starvation in Ukraine, they owe reparations for slavery. It's all about racism—yours.
The Dems' presidential campaigns are based around proving the other man or woman is more of a racist and vice versa, or about showing you're not so racist as people say you are, even if you are or even if you pretended to be a race you weren't. And don't you dare criticize Ilhan Omar or you're a triple-racist even if her ideas are more racist than anyone else's. Got it?

And above all, and never forget this because it is of paramount importance—otherwise we should all check ourselves into those concentration camps on the border and subsist on toilet water—what this country needs most of all is a CONVERSATION ABOUT RACE.
WRONG! (I would have put ten exclamation points but it would have seemed vulgar.)
It's exactly the opposite. There is only one way at this point to end or diminish racism and that is to shut up about it. Otherwise, what you really want, whether you admit it or not, is to perpetuate racism for your own advantage—like Al Sharpton (and many others, obviously, some of whom want desperately to be in the White House).
But don't believe me. Believe Morgan Freeman. Let's roll back to the Early Paleolithic Age (2005), when the great black actor was on 60 Minutes with Mike Wallace:
MIKE WALLACE, CBS`s "60 MINUTES": Black History Month, you find...
MORGAN FREEMAN, ACTOR: Ridiculous.
WALLACE: Why?
FREEMAN: You`re going to relegate my history to a month?
WALLACE: Come on.
FREEMAN: What do you do with yours? Which month is White History Month? Come on, tell me.
WALLACE: I'm Jewish.
FREEMAN: OK. Which month is Jewish History Month?
WALLACE: There isn`t one.
FREEMAN: Why not? Do you want one?
WALLACE: No, no.
FREEMAN: I don`t either. I don`t want a Black History Month. Black history is American history.
WALLACE: How are we going to get rid of racism until...?
FREEMAN: Stop talking about it. I'm going to stop calling you a white man. And I'm going to ask you to stop calling me a black man. I know you as Mike Wallace. You know me as Morgan Freeman. You`re not going to say, "I know this white guy named Mike Wallace." Hear what I'm saying?
Stop talking about it. Interesting idea, isn't it? I doubt Cory Booker would approve. 'The Squad" would doubtless go apoplectic. Nevertheless, it's the only way to end racism—stop talking about it. We already have laws against it, for a long time now, as we should. And they should be strictly enforced. But the rest of the blah-blah has got to go. It only makes people hate each other. It creates racism rather than solves it.

Unfortunately, not long after the sane comments by Mr. Freeman, Barack Obama was elected and what seemed at first to be the end or diminishment of racism went the other way. The scab kept being picked, by Eric Holder and Obama himself. They couldn't let go of it. Soon enough, Morgan Freeman walked back what he said under the sadness of peer pressure.
And now we are where we are—in the land of AOC and Omar—every one of us racists until we die. The revolution eats its own.



#13204 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2019-July-20, 21:40

View PostChas_P, on 2019-July-20, 18:43, said:

Head removed, and I still see nothing in "‘We will never be a Socialist or Communist Country. IF YOU ARE NOT HAPPY HERE, YOU CAN LEAVE! It is your choice, and your choice alone. This is about love for America. Certain people HATE our Country…They are anti-Israel, pro Al-Qaeda, and comment on the 9/11 attack, “some people did something.” Radical Left Democrats want Open Borders, which means drugs, crime, human trafficking, and much more. Our Country is Free, Beautiful and Very Successful. If you hate our Country, or if you are not happy here, you can leave!’

that has anything to do with how much light your skin reflects.


I find it telling that you keep conflating racism with skin color...

You do realize that expressions like "Go back to where you came from" originated in discrimination against Italians and the Irish by established Protestants who didn't recognize them as white?
For that matter, the word "swarthy" was originally coined to discriminate between the "right" type of whites and the wrong type...
Alderaan delenda est
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#13205 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2019-July-21, 04:13

View PostChas_P, on 2019-July-20, 18:43, said:

Head removed, and I still see nothing in "‘We will never be a Socialist or Communist Country. IF YOU ARE NOT HAPPY HERE, YOU CAN LEAVE! It is your choice, and your choice alone. This is about love for America. Certain people HATE our Country…They are anti-Israel, pro Al-Qaeda, and comment on the 9/11 attack, “some people did something.” Radical Left Democrats want Open Borders, which means drugs, crime, human trafficking, and much more. Our Country is Free, Beautiful and Very Successful. If you hate our Country, or if you are not happy here, you can leave!’

that has anything to do with how much light your skin reflects.


Can't help but note that you aren't quoting Trump's original tweets...

the ones that read

Quote

So interesting to see “Progressive” Democrat Congresswomen, who originally came from countries whose governments are a complete and total catastrophe

Quote

Why don’t they go back and help fix the totally broken and crime infested places from which they came


Even if you believe that Trump's half hearted attempt to walk back to controversy is racist, what about the original tweets?

Or for that matter, what about a man who says that Mexican / muslim judges can't preside over cases where he is a plantiff?
What about a man who refused to hire blacks for his casinos?
What about a man who was convicted for discriminatory housing practices?

And, since you seem so concerned with Lyndsey Graham's opinions on the matter, don't forget the following quote.

“Donald Trump is a race-baiting, xenophobic, religious bigot.”
Alderaan delenda est
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#13206 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2019-July-21, 08:28

Quote

New research published in the academic journal Personality and Individual Differences found that the most racist people often overlooked their cultural biases. Furthermore, the study recognized how dangerous it can be to downplay racial and gender-based attitudes.

As reported by the Pacific Standard magazine, the election of Donald Trump to the presidency has further heightened the “condition” known as the Dunning-Kruger Effect, in which people mistakenly assess their cognitive ability as greater than it is. In 2016, Trump famously said that he is “the least racist person you have ever met” though his entire career has been shrouded in unfair housing policies, racist attacks on Black and Brown people, and public empathy for White supremacists.

According to the study, the reason for this could be that Trump and people like him never developed the mental capacity to see their prejudices for what they are. The dangerous part of that is with that frame of mind, those people can never work towards bettering themselves.

“In line with the Dunning-Kruger model, this research found that very prejudiced individuals (i.e., those low in egalitarianism) may be genuinely unaware of their shortcomings because they lack the meta-cognition necessary to perceive them,” the study’s authors, Dr. Keon West and Dr. Asia A. Eaton, concluded.

For the sake of the study, researchers focused on anti-Black racism and surveyed 148 participants. They were asked to rank their biases in relation to race. Those who claimed to be the most pre-equality had the greatest deviation from the way they identified their biases and attitudes.

West and Easton believe results prove that diversity training as it is, is largely ineffective. They also deduced that “actual training in techniques to reduce bias” is needed to recalibrate people’s brains to genuinely be able to see their shortcomings when it comes to viewing others as equal.
my emphasis
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#13207 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2019-July-21, 08:46

Trump the Chump is only a symptom of a greater problem:

Quote

The relevant question is not whether Trump is a racist. Of course he is. Or whether he’s going to continue bashing these members of Congress, who fill all his demonization boxes: Democrats, females, people of color, a Muslim. Of course he will.

The real question is whether the people bankrolling Trump and the Republican party are going to stop this rot before it consumes the politics of 2020, and perhaps more.

Early signs are not encouraging. Just before Trump’s North Carolina rally, the Republican National Committee released an ad attacking the “Squad”, as the four congresswomen have become known.

The ad....is profoundly misleading. The clips are all taken out of context....

The RNC is intentionally and mendaciously fueling the same racism Trump is fueling, for the same purpose: whipping up the base.

Who is funding this horse manure? Much of the money that’s flowing into Republican coffers is coming from the same place it’s always come from: Wall Street.
my emphasis

Profits before people. Self-enrichment ahead of societal needs. Ayn Rand selfishness over religious generosity. That is the problem.
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#13208 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2019-July-21, 10:06

View Postldrews, on 2019-July-20, 18:18, said:

I certainly don't hate others. Things are just better.

And Mussolini made the trains run on time (yes, I know this isn't actually true, but it's the same attitude).

I'm an investor, so I've made lots of money during the Trump administration. But is all the damage he's doing to society really worth this? Are "things" really better when hundreds of immigrant children are being held in squalid conditions in detention centers? Are "things" really better when we're increasing water and air pollution, instead of taking steps to halt climate change? Are "things" really better when we're walking back universal health care?

It's easy to say that things are just better when you cherry-pick the "things" that matter. And most of these things only matter to rich white guys.

#13209 User is offline   ldrews 

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Posted 2019-July-21, 12:42

View Postbarmar, on 2019-July-21, 10:06, said:

And Mussolini made the trains run on time (yes, I know this isn't actually true, but it's the same attitude).

I'm an investor, so I've made lots of money during the Trump administration. But is all the damage he's doing to society really worth this? Are "things" really better when hundreds of immigrant children are being held in squalid conditions in detention centers? Are "things" really better when we're increasing water and air pollution, instead of taking steps to halt climate change? Are "things" really better when we're walking back universal health care?

It's easy to say that things are just better when you cherry-pick the "things" that matter. And most of these things only matter to rich white guys.


Are you not cherry picking?
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#13210 User is offline   sharon j 

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Posted 2019-July-21, 12:55

Interesting analysis of Trump supporters:[url="http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/opinions-the-psychological-phenomenon-that-blinds-trump-supporters-to-his-racism/ar-AAEweFv"]


Not sure I entered this link correctly.
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#13211 User is offline   ldrews 

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Posted 2019-July-21, 13:04

View Postbarmar, on 2019-July-21, 10:06, said:

And Mussolini made the trains run on time (yes, I know this isn't actually true, but it's the same attitude).

I'm an investor, so I've made lots of money during the Trump administration. But is all the damage he's doing to society really worth this? Are "things" really better when hundreds of immigrant children are being held in squalid conditions in detention centers? Are "things" really better when we're increasing water and air pollution, instead of taking steps to halt climate change? Are "things" really better when we're walking back universal health care?

It's easy to say that things are just better when you cherry-pick the "things" that matter. And most of these things only matter to rich white guys.


OK, I have more things to say. Hundreds of immigrant children are being held in detention centers because their parents (or third parties who purchased them from their parents) entered the US illegally. Don't you think the primary responsibility for the situation rests with the parents?

With regards to water and air pollution, as I read the US has improved conditions in the US during the last few years. Water and air quality are better. The main polluters are Asian countries and the members of the Paris Accords. Shouldn't you be directing your ire at them?

With respect to climate change, the contribution of human activity is seriously in question. A recent study released by a Finnish university asserted that human activity contributed very little to recorded temperature change. This research was supported by another recent study in Japan.

And finally, you assume Universal Healthcare as a given. And yet several studies have shown that Universal Healthcare would essentially bankrupt the world. And Universal Healthcare has never been an existent condition of humanity, so no one is walking anything back.
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#13212 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2019-July-21, 15:09

View Postldrews, on 2019-July-21, 13:04, said:

OK, I have more things to say.


Damn... I was so hoping that you were dead.

Quote

Hundreds of immigrant children are being held in detention centers because their parents (or third parties who purchased them from their parents) entered the US illegally. Don't you think the primary responsibility for the situation rests with the parents?


1. It is not illegal to claim asylum in the United States. Your entire premise that these people are entering the US illegally is incorrect.

2. I place primary responsibility on the government and citizens of the United States who have been responsible for destabilizing the Northern Triangle.

Quote

With regards to water and air pollution, as I read the US has improved conditions in the US during the last few years. Water and air quality are better. The main polluters are Asian countries and the members of the Paris Accords. Shouldn't you be directing your ire at them?


The US / Canada / Australia still lead per capita emissions by an overwhelming margin.
If you look at historical emissions, the US is ahead by miles

And, of course, we're doing butkus to actually stop emissions what with rapist in chief reversing all of our recent improvements.

Quote

With respect to climate change, the contribution of human activity is seriously in question. A recent study released by a Finnish university asserted that human activity contributed very little to recorded temperature change. This research was supported by another recent study in Japan.


https://climatefeedb...global-warming/
Alderaan delenda est
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#13213 User is offline   ldrews 

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Posted 2019-July-21, 15:27

View Posthrothgar, on 2019-July-21, 15:09, said:

Damn... I was so hoping that you were dead.



1. It is not illegal to claim asylum in the United States. Your entire premise that these people are entering the US illegally is incorrect.

2. I place primary responsibility on the government and citizens of the United States who have been responsible for destabilizing the Northern Triangle.



The US / Canada / Australia still lead per capita emissions by an overwhelming margin.
If you look at historical emissions, the US is ahead by miles

And, of course, we're doing butkus to actually stop emissions what with rapist in chief reversing all of our recent improvements.



https://climatefeedb...global-warming/


Great to hear from you again! Glad you are still alive.

It is not illegal to claim asylum at a port of entry, provided you have made application at the first country you entered and have been denied. It is illegal to cross the border anyplace other than a port of entry. You may still claim asylum, but that does remove the crime of illegal entry. 90% of asylum claims are denied, so if the person is part of that 90%, then they are in the US illegally. At the moment many of those illegal entry claimants are being held in custody in detention centers. If the claimants do not wish to be held in detention centers they have the option of not crossing the border illegally. Since it is their choice to enter illegally, then the primary responsibility for the consequences are theirs.

By your logic, since the US is currently one of the more impactful countries in the world, then all of the world's problems are the responsibility of the US. I reject that position.

Please provide a link to back up your claim that the US and Canada lead the world in per capita pollution. My understanding is that China and India are, by far, the worst offenders.

As for what the US is doing, please see https://www.epa.gov/...peoples-health.
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#13214 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2019-July-21, 15:29

View Postldrews, on 2019-July-21, 13:04, said:

And finally, you assume Universal Healthcare as a given. And yet several studies have shown that Universal Healthcare would essentially bankrupt the world. And Universal Healthcare has never been an existent condition of humanity, so no one is walking anything back.

You do know that "Universal Healthcare" (I didn't know this had to be capitalized. Reminds me of the previous capitalised adjective-noun combination I read tonight, the "Big Bad Mouse" [The Gruffalo's Child, Julia Donaldson].) exists in many countries in various forms, and thus far hasn't bankrupted any of them? Right?? I guess "studies have shown" that Canada, UK, Germany, Switzerland, Singapore, Japan, ... do not exist!

Man, I genuinely didn't think your posts would be even worse when you returned.
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#13215 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2019-July-21, 15:35

View Postldrews, on 2019-July-21, 15:27, said:

It is not illegal to claim asylum at a port of entry, provided you have made application at the first country you entered and have been denied. It is illegal to cross the border anyplace other than a port of entry. You may still claim asylum, but that does remove the crime of illegal entry. 90% of asylum claims are denied, so if the person is part of that 90%, then they are in the US illegally. At the moment many of those illegal entry claimants are being held in custody in detention centers. If the claimants do not wish to be held in detention centers they have the option of not crossing the border illegally. Since it is their choice to enter illegally, then the primary responsibility for the consequences are theirs.


This is a change that the Trump administration made last week and represents a major change in US policy
It has no bearing what-so-ever on the overwhelming majority of people in custody and will probably be overturned by the courts

Quote

Please provide a link to back up your claim that the US and Canada lead the world in per capita pollution. My understanding is that China and India are, by far, the worst offenders.


https://en.wikipedia...ions_per_capita

(Note, when I orginally checked this, I was looking at 2015 emissions and the US was ahead of Saudi Arabia

As for what the US is doing, please see https://www.epa.gov/...peoples-health.

The clean air act was put in place in the 1970s.

I was discussing the enormous series of environmental rollbacks that the Trump administration has done in the last two years

https://www.nytimes....-rollbacks.html
Alderaan delenda est
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#13216 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2019-July-21, 15:37

View PostChas_P, on 2019-July-17, 19:49, said:

Quote

‘We will never be a Socialist or Communist Country. IF YOU ARE NOT HAPPY HERE, YOU CAN LEAVE! It is your choice, and your choice alone. This is about love for America. Certain people HATE our Country…They are anti-Israel, pro Al-Qaeda, and comment on the 9/11 attack, “some people did something.” Radical Left Democrats want Open Borders, which means drugs, crime, human trafficking, and much more. Our Country is Free, Beautiful and Very Successful. If you hate our Country, or if you are not happy here, you can leave!’

I see nothing in there that has anything to do with how much light your skin reflects. If you do, that's your problem.

Pro tip, for when you want to prove that you aren't racist. Don't try justify your hostility against someone of a different race by making up a series of blatant obvious lies.

Just saying.
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#13217 User is offline   ldrews 

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Posted 2019-July-21, 16:02

View Posthrothgar, on 2019-July-21, 15:35, said:

This is a change that the Trump administration made last week and represents a major change in US policy
It has no bearing what-so-ever on the overwhelming majority of people in custody and will probably be overturned by the courts



https://en.wikipedia...ions_per_capita

(Note, when I orginally checked this, I was looking at 2015 emissions and the US was ahead of Saudi Arabia

As for what the US is doing, please see https://www.epa.gov/...peoples-health.

The clean air act was put in place in the 1970s.

I was discussing the enormous series of environmental rollbacks that the Trump administration has done in the last two years

https://www.nytimes....-rollbacks.html


To me the NYTimes is no longer a credible source of information.
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#13218 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2019-July-21, 16:16

View Postldrews, on 2019-July-21, 16:02, said:

To me the NYTimes is no longer a credible source of information.



Good thing that the goal here is to demonstrate that you're an ignorant troll rather than trying to change your mind...

Even so, its pretty damn sad that your brain is so closed that you can't accept a list of facts with citations that contradict your world view.

This probably also explains why your ideas about C02 emissions per capita are so farcical.
Alderaan delenda est
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#13219 User is offline   ldrews 

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Posted 2019-July-21, 17:31

View Posthrothgar, on 2019-July-21, 16:16, said:

Good thing that the goal here is to demonstrate that you're an ignorant troll rather than trying to change your mind...

Even so, its pretty damn sad that your brain is so closed that you can't accept a list of facts with citations that contradict your world view.

This probably also explains why your ideas about C02 emissions per capita are so farcical.


You are certainly entitled to your opinion.
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#13220 User is offline   ldrews 

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Posted 2019-July-21, 17:46

View Posthrothgar, on 2019-July-21, 15:35, said:

This is a change that the Trump administration made last week and represents a major change in US policy
It has no bearing what-so-ever on the overwhelming majority of people in custody and will probably be overturned by the courts



https://en.wikipedia...ions_per_capita

(Note, when I orginally checked this, I was looking at 2015 emissions and the US was ahead of Saudi Arabia

As for what the US is doing, please see https://www.epa.gov/...peoples-health.

The clean air act was put in place in the 1970s.

I was discussing the enormous series of environmental rollbacks that the Trump administration has done in the last two years

https://www.nytimes....-rollbacks.html


So I looked up the EPA report on air pollution trends https://www.epa.gov/air-trends

All of the trends are down except one, and that is still lower than it was in 1980. Don't you think this is good progress?
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  1. awm