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NAMYATS How do you play it?

#1 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2005-March-21, 07:26

Namyats is a convention where an opening on the Four Level in either of the Minors is a preempt transfer: 4 Clubs indicates a long suit in Hearts, and 4 Diamonds indicates a long suit in Spades.

This opening bid indicates a much stronger preempt than simply opening 4H or 4S. The question becomes, how much stronger. Does vulnerability play a role? That is if you are vulnerable, what does a 4C versus 4H bid show, and if you are vulnerable, does these requirements change?

A typical namyats bid is often a hand you are afraid to open 1M because the bidding might go P-P-P when you have 10 tricks, but you are not strong enough to open 2C (not enough controls, not enough quick tricks). A hand like:

x
AKQJT8xx
x
AJT

You would open this 4C, while change all the clubs to little cards, you would open 4H.

The questions I have, are as follows, what are your requirements for a 4C/4D opening bid.

1) Do you need a side ACE OR KING?
2) Can you have a void?
3) Do you need control in two of the three side suits (distibutional or A/K)
4) What is your suit requirement (that is do you require good enough to play slam opposite small singleton)
5) If you play a big club system, how does that affect your namyats bid (after all, you can safely open 1C).
6) IF you include acol two bids in your 2C opening bid (or play acol 2 bids), how does that affect your namyats?

The hand given above, I would open 2C, since I open 2C with any hand with 8 sure tricks in a major and at least five controls. So my namyats are lighter than this, what I consider a standard namyats bid. I would like to see how others use this bid.

Ben
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#2 User is offline   Chamaco 

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Posted 2005-March-21, 07:38

I like a lot "Romex" Namyats requirements:
- 4/ 4.5 losers
- max 4 controls
- at least 2 of top 3 honors in the major
- no suit should have 3 losers
- no void

http://www.bridgeguy...mexNamyats.html

It seems to me it combines good definition of the hand (responder has a good idea of controls) whilst relaxing the requirements of suit solidity, allowing for more frequent use.

According to the above requirements, the hand posted by Ben has too many controls (5) to open a Namyats.
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#3 User is offline   mr1303 

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Posted 2005-March-21, 07:40

The way I play it is either a) a solid suit or :rolleyes: a 1 loser suit and an outside ace. The idea is that it should have some play for game opposite most hands that partner may have (give him an average 7 or 8 count)

However, we do play a strong club, and so we don't have as much of a problem of our 1 level openings being passed out when 10 playing tricks.

We do say no outside A, K or Q other than the possible outside A if the suit is 1 loser variety. We don't usually do it on a void, although admittedly the problem hasn't come up yet.
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Posted 2005-March-21, 07:53

Chamaco, on Mar 21 2005, 09:38 AM, said:

I like a lot "Romex" Namyats requirements:
- 4/ 4.5 losers
- max 4 controls
- at least 2 of top 3 honors in the major
- no suit should have 3 losers

http://www.bridgeguy...mexNamyats.html

It seems to me it combines good definition of the hand (responder has a good idea of controls) whilst relaxing the requirements of suit solidity, allowing for more frequent use.

According to the above requirements, the hand posted by Ben has too many controls (5) to open a Namyats.

I picked an example that I WOULD open 2 so I could explain why it was inappropriate. My namyats is limited to four controls as well. ROMEX is a strong club system now (and use to be strong, unbalanced forcing 1NT system), which explains the four control or less requirement that George put on his bid. Playing standard american/2over1/sayc, you probably can not have such a low requirement.

Ben
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Posted 2005-March-21, 07:53

[quote name='inquiry' date='Mar 21 2005, 08:26 AM'] The questions I have, are as follows, what are your requirements for a 4C/4D opening bid.

1) Do you need a side ACE OR KING?
2) Can you have a void?
3) Do you need control in two of the three side suits (distibutional or A/K)
4) What is your suit requirement (that is do you require good enough to play slam opposite small singleton)
5) If you play a big club system, how does that affect your namyats bid (after all, you can safely open 1C).
6) IF you include acol two bids in your 2C opening bid (or play acol 2 bids), how does that affect your namyats?


1. 3 out of 5 key cards.
2. No void.
3. Yes, control (any 1st or 2nd round) in at least 2 of the side suits.
4. Not more than 1 loser opposite a singleton.
5. I do not play strong club.
6. Namyats is still on the cc if I play Acol 2's, mostly because of (4). The suit for an Acol 2 can easily be weaker than the requirement for a Namyats opening. Besides, an Acol 2 can be on 5 or 6 cards, Namyats is almost always 7+.

Roland
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#6 User is offline   Chamaco 

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Posted 2005-March-21, 07:55

inquiry, on Mar 21 2005, 01:53 PM, said:

ROMEX is a strong club system now (and use to be strong, unbalanced forcing 1NT system), which explains the four control or less requirement that George put on his bid.

Well, I play a strong club system too, hehe :rolleyes:
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#7 User is offline   Rebound 

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Posted 2005-March-21, 08:44

With my precision partners, our namyats is defined as an 8-card suit, solid with at least AKQ with at most a K outside. Suit control asking bids are available so voids are fine.

As it happens, I've never played the stronger variety and I would be very interested to know the response/rebid structure.
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#8 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2005-March-21, 09:01

When I used to play namyats, I did it in the way of Andersen/Zenkel (from their book 'Preempts from A to Z'). So a 4m namyats would promise a 0-1 loser suit and 1 side feature, A or K. Those were the only two requirements, though with 10+ playing tricks it's probably best to open 2C.
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#9 User is offline   luis 

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Posted 2005-March-21, 09:12

Inmy partnership we are using Namyats and the requirements are very relaxed, mostly depending on the vulnerability.
For example NV vrs V QJxxxxx of spades and out is a 4s opening so AKxxxxx and a side ace or King is a 4d opening. In general the 4c opening is stronger than the 4d opening since the 4s preempt is weaker than the 4h preempt for us.

Answering your questions:

1) Do you need a side ACE OR KING?

No

2) Can you have a void?

Yes

3) Do you need control in two of the three side suits (distibutional or A/K)

No

4) What is your suit requirement (that is do you require good enough to play slam opposite small singleton)

No, no requirement.

5) If you play a big club system, how does that affect your namyats bid (after all, you can safely open 1C).

We play the 1s opening bid as forcing (14+) so with really strong hands we open 1s, with weak ones 4s and in the middle we use 4d.

6) IF you include acol two bids in your 2C opening bid (or play acol 2 bids), how does that affect your namyats?

Doesn't apply.

Usually by rule a 4m opening has 2 or 3 keycards missing for a slam, so pd is allowed to check as long as he has at least two of them. This doesn't apply when we are NV vrs V in 1st/2nd position where a 4s opening can be very weak, in this position a slam requieres not only 2 keycards but extra values.

Over 4c and 4d we use the relay as 2 keycards, and not much else, for example 2 aces or an ace and the trump king with little on the side.


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#10 User is offline   joker_gib 

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Posted 2005-March-21, 09:14

For the moment, this is how we play it :

Openings of 4 and 4

These bids show 8 cards suit (4=, 4=) with at least 2 of the 3 big honours. (nothing else needed)

On these bids, 4 et 4 are respectively special Blackwoods. Answers by step are :
+1 K and Q
+2 A and Q
+3 A and K
+4 A, K and Q
+5 A, K, Q and J


Openings of 4 and 4

8 cards suit without 2 of the big honours (nothing else needed)

4NT is special Blackwood. Answers are :

5 Nothing
5 Q
5 K
5 A
5NT A and J

As consequence, we adopted 3NT opening as a 4-level minor preempt and the gambling 3NT is opened at the 1-level or overcalled later.

Alain
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#11 User is offline   luis 

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Posted 2005-March-21, 09:18

As a follow-up to the alerts and disclosure threads I must say that whenever we open 4h or 4s we alert indicating that we have 4c and 4d available as good 4h/4s openings.
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#12 User is offline   joker_gib 

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Posted 2005-March-21, 09:26

luis, on Mar 21 2005, 10:18 AM, said:

As a follow-up to the alerts and disclosure threads I must say that whenever we open 4h or 4s we alert indicating that we have 4c and 4d available as good 4h/4s openings.

Totally agree with you Luis !

:rolleyes:

Alain
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#13 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2005-March-21, 10:04

I'm not wild about our general structure re: requirements. All we say is "8 - 8 1/2" tricks". I think this should move up and down depending on vulnerability, since the NAMYATS call should always be stronger than a direct 4 / 4 bid.

Other than that:

- It shows a max of 4 controls
- It can't have more than TWO outside cards

Also, my NAMYATS opener is 3N (unknown major), to keep the 4 and 4 openers natural. I think I mentioned that I heard Baze plays it this way.

Hands like:

AKQxxxxx, xx, xx, x
AQJxxxxx, A, xxx, x
x, KQJxxxxxx, xx, x

all qualify.
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Posted 2005-March-21, 10:51

pclayton, on Mar 21 2005, 12:04 PM, said:

I'm not wild about our general structure re: requirements. All we say is "8 - 8 1/2" tricks". I think this should move up and down depending on vulnerability, since the NAMYATS call should always be stronger than a direct 4 / 4 bid.

Other than that:

- It shows a max of 4 controls
- It can't have more than TWO outside cards

Also, my NAMYATS opener is 3N (unknown major), to keep the 4 and 4 openers natural. I think I mentioned that I heard Baze plays it this way.

Yes, a point I asked about in my original post. This is something I entirely agree upon.

Quote

Hands like:

AKQxxxxx, xx, xx, x
AQJxxxxx, A, xxx, x
x, KQJxxxxxx, xx, x

all qualify.


I notice your suits will play in a slam opposite a small singleton. I see Luis does not have such suit quiality as a requirement (I assume therefore something like KJTxxxxx is ok for him). Is the play opposite a singleton a require the way you play? If not always, then how about when vul?

Ben
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Posted 2005-March-21, 11:07

I do not play nam yats but this is quite interesting, why cant 4 of a major be premptive 8 cards and 4 of a minor be a long major suit ( 7 or 8)and a second minor suit i.e the one bid 4 at least not sure of point range but weakish

i.e.

4C = clubs and a major you can bid 4D and then major is bid, no idea what structure you can have after you have found a 2 suit fit, but sure there must be something sensible available

4D = diamonds and a major you can bid 4H and p can correct ( may be better if 4H is left in as the hand that is unknown is hidden) no idea what structure you can have after you have found a 2 suit fit, but sure there must be something sensible available

I am sure I can invent a brilliant structure over the weekend LOL (just joking) , is there a convention like this anyway where ??
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#16 User is offline   mr1303 

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Posted 2005-March-21, 11:13

Never heard of anything like this, and the reason is something like this:

With 7-4-X-Y you 99.9% of the time want to play in the 7 card suit rather than the 4 card suit.

And I especially think that opening in the 4 card minor with 7-4 is a dreadful treatment.
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Posted 2005-March-21, 11:20

sceptic, on Mar 21 2005, 01:07 PM, said:

4D = diamonds and a major you can bid 4H and p can correct ( may be better if 4H is left in as the hand that is unknown is hidden) no idea what structure you can have after you have found a 2 suit fit, but sure there must be something sensible available

What does your partner bid with 9 solid hearts?

What does he bid with a weakish hand that is

4-0-3-6

If you have spades and diamonds, he had best get you to 4, but if you have hearts and diamonds, maybe it is best to stick in 4.

Let;s keep this thread on namyats, and move this citpecs two suit preempt to another thread.... If this is as bad as I think it might be, maybe we should name this citpes preempt :-)

Ben
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Posted 2005-March-21, 11:25

inquiry, on Mar 21 2005, 08:51 AM, said:

pclayton, on Mar 21 2005, 12:04 PM, said:

I'm not wild about our general structure re: requirements. All we say is "8 - 8 1/2" tricks".  I think this should move up and down depending on vulnerability, since the NAMYATS call should always be stronger than a direct 4 / 4 bid.

Other than that:

- It shows a max of 4 controls
- It can't have more than TWO outside cards

Also, my NAMYATS opener is 3N (unknown major), to keep the 4 and 4 openers natural. I think I mentioned that I heard Baze plays it this way.

Yes, a point I asked about in my original post. This is something I entirely agree upon.

Quote

Hands like:

AKQxxxxx, xx, xx, x
AQJxxxxx, A, xxx, x
x, KQJxxxxxx, xx, x

all qualify.


I notice your suits will play in a slam opposite a small singleton. I see Luis does not have such suit quiality as a requirement (I assume therefore something like KJTxxxxx is ok for him). Is the play opposite a singleton a require the way you play? If not always, then how about when vul?

Ben

I wouldn't be upset if we opened a NAMYATS with: x, KJTxxxxxx, Ax, x; but I like the idea of the suit playing for max one loser opposite a stiff.

Why? Slam tries are a lot easier. Frequently, responder will want to make an asking bid, instead of just barging into RKC. If Responder has some assurances about trump quality, then an asking bid is usually better.

My specific notes:

3N - (Baze modification): 3N shows strong 4 of a major opening (8 8 tricks):

---->4 usual response; Opener transfers into his suit (=s), (=s). Opener can still make a slam try and not accept the transfer. New suits are asking bids (1st = none, 2nd = 2nd round, 3rd = 1st round)

---->4 - Responder wants opener to play it OR responder is making a slam try. Kickback and asking bids are on. 4N over 4 = asking bid in s.

---->4 / 4 / 5 / 5 = Do not exist.

4 / 4 = 4 level preempt in minor (kickback is on); new suits beside 4 of a major = asking bids.

4 / 4 = Normal preempt, but weaker than NAMYATS

4N = Strong 5 or 5 opening

5 / 5 = Weak 5 of a minor opening
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#19 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2005-March-21, 15:48

I no longer play a version on Namyats as a 4C/D pre empt is too valuable to give up.

What we used to play was:
4C = AKQ to 7 in either Major and an outside ace
4D = AKJ or AQJ to 7 in either Major and an outside ace.

We found responder can tell which M nearly all the time, and you can ask anyway. Followed these bids up with singleton asking bids.
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Posted 2005-March-21, 16:03

pclayton, on Mar 21 2005, 01:25 PM, said:

---->4 / 4 / 5 / 5 = Do not exist.

4 / 4 = 4 level preempt in minor (kickback is on); new suits beside 4 of a major = asking bids.

4 / 4 = Normal preempt, but weaker than NAMYATS

Let me address these two points.

First, the fact that 3NT-P-4 does not exist is wrong in my opinion. Just because opener might hold a nice seven or eight card spade suit and whatever else you need for your 3NT bid, doesn't mean responder can not have a 9 card heart suit. Maybe instead of doesn't exist, show void in other major and own suit.

Second, this is a personal biases.. a first or second seat opening bid of 4 or 4 as preemptive or a second seat jump overcall of 4[c] or 4 is very presumptious... you have just gone pass 3NT. At least namyats and Ron's method opener when he bids 4 or 4 is aimed squarely at a four level major contract. I do not like 4C/4D as weak for this reason.... although I keep the jump overcall as weak right now (I am not sure this is best). After partner passed, of course, jump overcall to four level is fine as weak.

I have switched to following, which fails in line with no way to bid clubs naturally ( :( ).

Opening bid
3 = diamond preempt or strong two suiter without diamonds
3 = heart preempt or strong two suiter with diamonds and black suit
3 = spade preempt, or strong two suiter with hearts and diamonds
3 = gambling 3NT bid with a solid suit (can be major), nothing else
3NT = any preempt to 4 of a minor, weak (of course parnter can pass).
4C/4D = namyats
4H/4S = weak
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