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Out of Order?

#21 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2015-June-26, 06:42

View Postwank, on 2015-June-26, 03:56, said:

Well that's obviously untrue. You can agree that opening 7nt shows 4333 15 count. Lo and behold you pick up a 4333 15 count. You open 7nt and go for 2300. "Oh no, i'm not an idiot, it was systemic," isn't a good defense.


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#22 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2015-June-27, 01:26

View PostTrinidad, on 2015-June-26, 06:34, said:

Just my $0.02:

Pass = 10
2 = 9
1 = 3

Why am I so negative about 1? Because I may be forced to bid once more and the only possible rebid I have is in spades. Then I will be showing a six card suit. Partner will notice that I didn't make a weak jump overcall, despite my six card suit. He will conclude that the reason for that is that I was too strong for a weak jump and will play me for an opening hand.

So, if I have to choose between telling my partner that I have six spades and a weak hand and telling him that I have six spades and an opening, I will pick the weak hand by making a weak jump overcall.

Rik


Well, if you happen to have the agreement with partner that a weak(ish) 6-card spade suit MUST either pass or bid 2S, then yes your logic is correct. But I don't think that agreement is either standard nor even a good one. When I'm vulnerable (which I agree I"m not here) I have hands which overcall 1S because they are not strong enough to bid a weak 2S. Certainly when NV there are hands that have too much outside the suit to make a weak 2S bid and this is one of them.

Even when opening at the 1-level / 2-level there is an overlap in HCP between a 1-level opening and a weak 2. Not as much as when overcalling.
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#23 User is offline   schelet 

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Posted 2015-June-27, 03:29

Well, in my opinion using such a bid depends on two factors :
a. vulnerability or non-vulnerability
b. your partner

Let me explain :
a. if me and my partner are playing non-vuln against vuln, definitely use the overcall bid. Opp opened with 12-15 hcp, I have 9, so I have no idea about the split of the remaining 16-19 hcp. Assuming an even split (let's say 9-9), we have 18 hcp against 22 hcp, but our long colour is spade, which forces the opps to bid either 2 NT or colour at level 3, which again would be normally difficult to make. So either we make 2 spades (= 110) or we record a -1 trick on opss contract (=100) is about the same. If opps have the hcp's and double 2 spades, they would normally make more by bidding and making their own contract compared with the deficit of tricks (even doubled) we might record by playing 2 spades doubled. So the idea is to bid 2 spades, see what follows and eventually let your p decide whether to pass, to bid 3 spades or even 4 spades.
Situation changes if vulnerability is equal (vuln or non-vuln) - please refer to b.
In case of vuln against non-vuln, I would recommend not to use this overcall bid.
b. if you are playing with someone you've just met (on BBO for example), please be reluctant to use such bids (regardless the vulnerability) because it might be misunderstood by your p.
If you are playing with someone familiar and you probably know how one of you normally bid such type of hands, then you could use such bid even if vulnerability is equal.
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#24 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2015-June-27, 03:44

Wrong forum. Sorry, thought it about time someone said it. We got to page 2.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

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#25 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2015-June-27, 08:41

View PostFrancesHinden, on 2015-June-27, 01:26, said:

Well, if you happen to have the agreement with partner that a weak(ish) 6-card spade suit MUST either pass or bid 2S, then yes your logic is correct. But I don't think that agreement is either standard nor even a good one. When I'm vulnerable (which I agree I"m not here) I have hands which overcall 1S because they are not strong enough to bid a weak 2S. Certainly when NV there are hands that have too much outside the suit to make a weak 2S bid and this is one of them.

Even when opening at the 1-level / 2-level there is an overlap in HCP between a 1-level opening and a weak 2. Not as much as when overcalling.

So, when you are vulnerable, have a six card suit that isn't worth mentioning, and about 8 points, can't you simply conclude that the six card suit isn't worth mentioning, the strength of the hand isn't worth mentioning and simply put a green card on the table?

Why would I overcall at the one level with 6 times the 10 in an 8 HCP hand?
It hardly takes any bidding room away.
It suggests the wrong lead when he opponents are declaring. The fact that I have a six card suit (that partner doesn't know of) reduces the probability that partner can raise, so the opponents will be declaring more often (than when I have a decent five card suit).

What is the point of overcalling with such a hand?

Rik
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#26 User is offline   PhantomSac 

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Posted 2015-June-27, 16:22

View PostTrinidad, on 2015-June-27, 08:41, said:



What is the point of overcalling with such a hand?



Wow. Maybe cuz it might be our hand for a spade contract? CHERRY PICKED EXAMPLE ALERT but if partner has say Axxx xxxx xx Kxx game is pretty good, I don't think he will be bidding. At some point someone has to bid, a good time for that is at the 1 level with a 6 card suit.

I wonder if people who pass with hands like this just never realize how much they're giving up because they never even notice it was their hand.
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#27 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2015-June-28, 11:27

View PostPhantomSac, on 2015-June-27, 16:22, said:

Wow. Maybe cuz it might be our hand for a spade contract? CHERRY PICKED EXAMPLE ALERT but if partner has say Axxx xxxx xx Kxx game is pretty good, I don't think he will be bidding. At some point someone has to bid, a good time for that is at the 1 level with a 6 card suit.

I wonder if people who pass with hands like this just never realize how much they're giving up because they never even notice it was their hand.

Okay, let's take your cherry picked example hand.

Would you make an invitational bid with that hand when partner overcalls 1? Would you expect overcaller to make any move towards game with his 6 card suit and 8 HCP?

Contrast that to what would happen after a WJO of 2: Advancer furthers the preempt to 4 and voila game has been reached.

Rik
I want my opponents to leave my table with a smile on their face and without matchpoints on their score card - in that order.
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
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