[Free]

Bidding goes (partner starts, opps are quiet):

1♣ - 1♥
1♠ - ?
(note: 1♠ is not forcing by agreement, you play 4th suit forcing and Walsch)
(note: you're playing a 5 card Major system, with ♦'s always 4+ cards, so 1♣ can be a doubleton)
(note: 1♠ doesn't deny a balanced hand) -> Chamaco

You hold:

Scoring: MP

---

What do you bid?

[whereagles]

1NT seems just about par. There are hints of misfit, so better put on the brakes.

One could also pass, but might miss a game if pd happens to have 3 hearts and an half-decent hand.

[Chamaco]

Free, on Mar 17 2005, 09:33 AM, said:

Bidding goes (partner starts, opps are quiet):

1♣ - 1♥
1♠ - ?
(note: 1♠ is not forcing by agreement, you play 4th suit forcing and Walsch)
(note: you're playing a 5 card Major system, with ♦'s always 4+ cards, so 1♣ can be a doubleton)

You hold:

<!-- ONEHAND begin --><table border='1'> <tr> <td> <table> <tr> <td> Dealer: </td> <td> North </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Vul: </td> <td> E/W </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Scoring: </td> <td> MP </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td> <table> <tr> <th> <span class='spades'> ♠ </span> </th> <td> QTx </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='hearts'> ♥ </span> </th> <td> JT9xx </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='diamonds'> ♦ </span> </th> <td> A87x </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='clubs'> ♣ </span> </th> <td> x </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td>  </td> </tr> </table><!-- ONEHAND end -->

What do you bid?

If the following are true:

a. 1S denies a balanced hand ( in Walsh style, opener's suit rebid here instead of 1NT guarantees at least 44 in the suits bids, usually with unbalanced hand OR , if balanced, with concentrated values), and
b. 1S is passable

then I will PASS.

1- Pard has real clubs, so our singleton is a minus
2- Pard is likely to be short in hearts; true, he might have 2 or (for some pairs) 3 , but he might be as well shorter;
3- we have only 7 hcp and the misfit does not justifying reevaluating the hand for distribution; let's stop at the one level: many opps will balance into THEIR misfit contract.

[Rebound]

1NT. Bidding is supposed to be all about describing your hand. Well I have a stop in the unbid suit so I think I'll let partner know now.

[flytoox]

1N, no second choice here.

[flytoox]

Chamaco, on Mar 17 2005, 10:05 AM, said:

Free, on Mar 17 2005, 09:33 AM, said:

Bidding goes (partner starts, opps are quiet):

1♣ - 1♥
1♠ - ?
(note: 1♠ is not forcing by agreement, you play 4th suit forcing and Walsch)
(note: you're playing a 5 card Major system, with ♦'s always 4+ cards, so 1♣ can be a doubleton)

You hold:

<!-- ONEHAND begin --><table border='1'> <tr> <td> <table> <tr> <td> Dealer: </td> <td> North </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Vul: </td> <td> E/W </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Scoring: </td> <td> MP </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td> <table> <tr> <th> <span class='spades'> ♠ </span> </th> <td> QTx </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='hearts'> ♥ </span> </th> <td> JT9xx </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='diamonds'> ♦ </span> </th> <td> A87x </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='clubs'> ♣ </span> </th> <td> x </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td>  </td> </tr> </table><!-- ONEHAND end -->

What do you bid?

If the following are true:

a. 1S denies a balanced hand ( in Walsh style, opener's suit rebid here instead of 1NT guarantees at least 44 in the suits bids, usually with unbalanced hand OR , if balanced, with concentrated values), and
b. 1S is passable

then I will PASS.

1- Pard has real clubs, so our singleton is a minus
2- Pard is likely to be short in hearts; true, he might have 2 or (for some pairs) 3 , but he might be as well shorter;
3- we have only 7 hcp and the misfit does not justifying reevaluating the hand for distribution; let's stop at the one level: many opps will balance into THEIR misfit contract.

Pass is too conservative. You have very good 7HCP and game is still possible. Keep the door open.

[Chamaco]

flytoox, on Mar 17 2005, 01:10 PM, said:

Pass is too conservative. You have very good 7HCP and game is still possible. Keep the door open.

1S is a passable bid, and there is clear indication the hand is a misfit (clubs are real under the Walsh assumptions).

Opener has less than 18 and probably less than a good 17, otherwise he could jump to 2S.

We might *occasionally* miss a 3NT with 24 hcp, but usually in misfit hand it takes more hcp to bid 3NT.

A much more likely scenario is opps sticking in balancing over 1S and be punished.

[whereagles]

Clubs may not be real. As Free said, opener may still have a balanced hand, including a 4-3-3-3. Though I agree a 4-x-x-4 is more likely.

Still, 1NT is technically correct.

[Chamaco]

whereagles, on Mar 17 2005, 01:52 PM, said:

Clubs may not be real. As Free said, opener may still have a balanced hand, including a 4-3-3-3.

Then, to my understanding, it's not Walsh style.

In Walsh style, the way I learned it (if I remeber it well, in "Better bidding with Bergen"), opener rebids 1/2NT to show the appropriate range of balanced hand, even bypassing a major.

So in Walsh style, a suit rebid by opener guarantees a hand with 2-suiter features (either a 54 or, if balanced, 4432 with concentrated values; with scattered values in 4432, rebid NT)

[whereagles]

You can play walsh in two ways:

1. Bypassing majors always, or
2. Bypassing majors only on the case 1C-1D-1NT.

Free seems to be playing 2.

[Walddk]

A textbook 1NT.

Roland

[Winstonm]

This hand brings up a couple of interesting side questions. First, is there value in playing this 1S rebid as a 100% force and if not what is the top end? And second, could it ever be right to make an immediate raise of spades with 3-card support.

If the hand in question were a little better where game is more probable, I might be tempted to raise spades with:

Q10x
A873
A9432
x

On the auction, pard is more likely in Walsh style to be 5422 or 5431 than to have a concentrated 4432. Might not this hand make more tricks in the Moysian fit?

Even AJ93, x, xxx, AKxxx could produce a spade game but NT would be ugly.

I'm sure I'm the minority here but I would be sorely tempted to bid 2S on this example hand.

On the given hand I rate 1N the best but would be very tempted at MPs to make the pass; at imps, I hate to give up on a pard who holds:
AKxx, KQx, x, A10xxx and is waiting to show delayed support over my 1N bid.

WinstonM

[han]

1NT for me too, it is way to early to be masterminding about a possible maysian fit game in my opinion.

[hrothgar]

I think this is a clearcut 2♠ bid.

If partner has a balanced hand, then he also holds a minimum. In this case, we're going to rest in a nice 2♠ contract and be very well positioned to destroy the opponents if they balance.

If partner holds a maximum, he is unbalanced with clubs and spades. In this case, the Moysian should play better than NT.

Either way, I'm positioned well.

Its also worth noting that that the 2♠ bid actually puts some pressure on the opponents. An anemic 1NT or pass provides the opponents with an easy chance to describe their hands.

[mike777]

hrothgar, on Mar 17 2005, 04:28 PM, said:

I think this is a clearcut 2♠ bid.

If partner has a balanced hand, then he also holds a minimum. In this case, we're going to rest in a nice 2♠ contract and be very well positioned to destroy the opponents if they balance.

If partner holds a maximum, he is unbalanced with clubs and spades. In this case, the Moysian should play better than NT.

Either way, I'm positioned well.

Its also worth noting that that the 2♠ bid actually puts some pressure on the opponents. An anemic or pass also the opponents an easy chance to describe their hands.

I bid 1nt here.

Agree with all of your premises. Your conclusions are unique and very interesting and have not seen them before.

Discussing only the balanced minimum opener case:
1) Understand 2s would put a lot of pressure on opp.
2) Would you bid the same MP or IMP?
3) Why does 4-3 play better than 1nt?
4) As in other forum post, why not let them balance you out of 1nt and then rebid 2s and make them guess again at 3 level? Is the opp doubling you in 2s that real of a concern to consider?

Thanks in advance.

[luke warm]

Free, on Mar 17 2005, 03:33 AM, said:

Bidding goes (partner starts, opps are quiet):

1♣ - 1♥
1♠ - ?
(note: 1♠ is not forcing by agreement, you play 4th suit forcing and Walsch)
(note: you're playing a 5 card Major system, with ♦'s always 4+ cards, so 1♣ can be a doubleton)
(note: 1♠ doesn't deny a balanced hand) -> Chamaco

You hold:

Scoring: MP

---

What do you bid?

1nt for me, partner is 4/5 in the blacks (or some 4441).. if he moves again i'll show the 5 hearts or 3 spades

[Winstonm]

Hrothgar

Quote

I think this is a clearcut 2♠ bid.

I believe their is a lot of merit to the 2S bid, more so at MPs than imps. This hand looks more promising in a trump fit but I would be concerned about getting overboard at imps.

Still, I admire the thinking behind this bid.

WinstonM

[the hog]

In my partnerships - 2S. The way I play opener is unbalanced with the blacks; neither of my rd suit stoppers is robust, so 2S should play better that 1N.

I really can't comment on the problem as originally presented by Free's based on the premise that opener may not have C & S. I stopped bidding like this years ago.

[pclayton]

1S does not promise an unbalanced hand. But in my partnerships it carries the same level of force as a reverse.Not standard, I know.

With this agreement, my biggest worry is that part holds a semi balanced 18-19 that spins 3N. Sometimes we will rebid 1S on a bare 4333 19 or a thin 18 like AQxx xx AQx AQxx.

So I'm a little torn between pass and 1N. As much as I admire 2S its a little rich with a dead minimum and only 3 trumps. The hands that I like a 3 card raise in this instance are typically a Q better.

[hrothgar]

pclayton, on Mar 18 2005, 03:52 AM, said:

1S does not promise an unbalanced hand. But in my partnerships it carries the same level of force as a reverse.Not standard, I know.

With this agreement, my biggest worry is that part holds a semi balanced 18-19 that spins 3N. Sometimes we will rebid 1S on a bare 4333 19 or a thin 18 like AQxx xx AQx AQxx.

The original post explictly noted that 1♠ is non-forcing
Partner doesn't have a balanced 18-19 count.