[flytoox]

Vul.: NS
sitting south, you hold:
S: K86
H: AX
D: JX
C: K87643

Pd opened 1H, RHO came in with 2D, what do you do? SAYC or 2/1

[inquiry]

3♣ forcing

[mike777]

3C

Vul p should play me towards top of range.
With lite openers then:
Deny 4 spades and 3 hearts very often and NFB 7-12 hcp and 6+clubs, just what I got.

[Flame]

3c wather we play this forcing or not. (i play forcing)

[the hog]

3C. I see the ancient city of Babylon, (Ur), has made a reappearance.

[luke warm]

i would bid 3C, but i don't play it as forcing... it shows 8/9-11/12 and (usually) a 6 card suit

yeah, ur of the chaldeans

[whereagles]

While 3C seems just about "par", I think it eats up too much bidding space for a hand that is not that hot. It might turn out wrong, but I think double is more flexible.

1H 2D dbl pass
2S <--- pard probably has a 4531 (LHO passed). With so much in the majors, he might even have 11 points, so I'll pass this.

1H 2D dbl pass
2H <--- pard might be stuck for a bid and hold only 5 cards. I'll pass this as well, or bid 3H on a good day.

1H 2D dbl pass
3C <--- love over gold. I'll bid 3D now.

1H 2D dbl 3D
3S pass ? <--- not the ideal situation, but I might try 4H here. Certainly not 4C which might be misinterpreted. In any case pard should be able to diagnose the situation and suspect 4H is made on 2 cards alone (I didn't make a direct support bid over 2D).

1H 2D dbl 4D
4S pass ? <--- the "worst case scenario". We might be playing the 4-3 fit with a 6-2 available. But it's just about as bad as it gets, and it sure still is playable.

Now compare with what would be if I had bid a direct 3C...

1H 2D 3C pass
3H <--- should be 6 cards, but pard might be stuck for a bid on Kxx AKJxx xx xxx. You have to guess whether there's a game on and whether it's in hearts or NT or clubs.

1H 3D 3C pass
3S pass ? <--- you should have a game on, but you'll have to guess which, and you'll have to guess it now.

1H 2D 3C pass
3D pass ? <--- this is about the only case it works ok: you now bid 3H.

Maybe I'm seeing too much and 3C is ok anyway. But it sure isn't automatic...

[joker_gib]

3♣ forcing too

[keylime]

3♣. Better than a G/B 2NT that forces 3♣. Need to tell pard where I live.

[luis]

3♣ automatic, is this a problem?

[inquiry]

luis, on Mar 16 2005, 10:14 AM, said:

3♣ automatic, is this a problem?

Not really.. The negative free bidders bid 3♣ on the top of their bid, hoping partner bids again. The 3♣ forcing bid 3♣ on the bottom of their bid, hoping htey can land on their feet. The NFB might play 3♣ when some game makes, the forcing 3♣ will player higher than 3♣ when maybe 3♣ is the limit.

[han]

Systemic question for the 3C-forcing players: is 3C gameforcing? I think the answer is yes, so that partner can rebid 3H with 6 and doesn't have to worry about it not being forcing.

Once I didn't have this discussed and it lead to a very painful 3H+3 (partner thought it was not forcing).

[whereagles]

A forcing 3C may or may not be game-forcing. Depends on what you agree with pard. But this is the sort of thing people never discuss. Which leads to what happened at your table..

[luis]

Hannie, on Mar 16 2005, 06:23 PM, said:

Systemic question for the 3C-forcing players: is 3C gameforcing? I think the answer is yes, so that partner can rebid 3H with 6 and doesn't have to worry about it not being forcing.

Once I didn't have this discussed and it lead to a very painful 3H+3 (partner thought it was not forcing).

Almost.
I play 3♣ here as "forcing but not promising a rebid" so if pd bids 3♥ or 4♣ or 3NT I can pass. If he bids 3♦ or 3♠ then we are in a game forcing situation.

[flytoox]

luis, on Mar 16 2005, 06:35 PM, said:

Hannie, on Mar 16 2005, 06:23 PM, said:

Systemic question for the 3C-forcing players: is 3C gameforcing? I think the answer is yes, so that partner can rebid 3H with 6 and doesn't have to worry about it not being forcing.

Once I didn't have this discussed and it lead to a very painful 3H+3 (partner thought it was not forcing).

Almost.
I play 3♣ here as "forcing but not promising a rebid" so if pd bids 3♥ or 4♣ or 3NT I can pass. If he bids 3♦ or 3♠ then we are in a game forcing situation.

That is only in your system. IN Sayc or 2/1, 3C is gf. No way you can pass 3H or 4C.

[luis]

flytoox, on Mar 16 2005, 07:37 PM, said:

luis, on Mar 16 2005, 06:35 PM, said:

Hannie, on Mar 16 2005, 06:23 PM, said:

Systemic question for the 3C-forcing players: is 3C gameforcing? I think the answer is yes, so that partner can rebid 3H with 6 and doesn't have to worry about it not being forcing.

Once I didn't have this discussed and it lead to a very painful 3H+3 (partner thought it was not forcing).

Almost.
I play 3♣ here as "forcing but not promising a rebid" so if pd bids 3♥ or 4♣ or 3NT I can pass. If he bids 3♦ or 3♠ then we are in a game forcing situation.

That is only in your system. IN Sayc or 2/1, 3C is gf. No way you can pass 3H or 4C.

It's not my system just a partnership agreement, after an overcall new suits at the 2 or 3 level are forcing but not promising a rebid. In SAYC you just don't know :-)

[keylime]

3C is a one round force showing a better hand with us than 2NT followed by a forced 3C. With us it isn't GF'ing just because of the limited bid nature of our system.

[flytoox]

keylime, on Mar 16 2005, 07:55 PM, said:

3C is a one round force showing a better hand with us than 2NT followed by a forced 3C. With us it isn't GF'ing just because of the limited bid nature of our system.

Correct me if I am wrong. But I think in both SAYC and 2/1, 3C is gf by default. We can stop at 4C only if we cuebid 3D, looking for 3N but both fail to bid it, then 4C rebid is passable.

[han]

I don't think this is defined in either system.

I'm pretty sure that it should be gameforcing though!

[Flame]

The default as far as i know is a 2 level bid is forcing for one round but a 3 level bid is forcing to game.