[han]

HeartA, on Mar 14 2005, 02:44 PM, said:

Walddk, on Mar 14 2005, 02:29 PM, said:

Correct, we have excatly 1 major when opps have bid hearts. That is what our negative double shows. Some play that it shows both unbid suits, i.e. spades and clubs. What it does not show, however, is clubs and a fit for diamonds.

You are welcome to have that agreement with your partner of course, but then you need another for when you have spades. If you haven't, opener will keep correcting to spades if he has a fit, no matter how hard you try to sign off in diamonds.

Roland

My concept (or modification) of negative dbl is to show unbid suit(s) when NFB is not available. If I bid a new suit (minor) after dbl, it denies the unbid (other) major.

I agree that it show not a hand of clubs and a fit for diamonds. That's why I guessed Flame hand of exactly 3 ♦s.

My version of negative dbl is similar to 1NT without intervention:
1♠ - 1NT
2♥ - 3♣
shows a hand of 10 (or 11) hcp or less with real ♣ suit. So does
1♠ - (2♦) - DBL
2♥ - 3♣.

The only difference is that 1NT could be 6 or 5 hcp, while DBL usually shows 8 to 11.

This sounds like a playable treatment. It has some faults (especially at higher levels it is important to show what suit(s) you have as soon as possible) but the standard treatment also has faults.

However, it would be good for you to realize that this is really not standard, and not expect other players to play the same way. (as you obviously did from your first reaction in this thread)

A good book that about negative doubles is (surprise) "negative doubles" by Marty Bergen. It discusses the standard treatment as well as some modifications, like the modification that Ben discussed and "thrump doubles".

[mike777]

1) You can have any agreements you want
2) My guess is 99.9 of partnerships playing NFB play 4 clubs here as game force. How often can playing exactly 4c or 4d be right?
3) Playing light openers I do not think my hand is worth a game force if partner cannot reopen over 3h. Will balance with 4nt over 4h.
4) Hand B choice 1=pass, choice 2=1nt. Would not make a nfb as strongly prefer 6 card or very strong 5 card suit and around 7-12 hcp with light openers.

[inquiry]

Hannie, on Mar 14 2005, 03:46 PM, said:

inquiry, on Mar 14 2005, 12:06 PM, said:

Flame, on Mar 14 2005, 12:37 PM, said:

Thx everyone
After a the hand i had a talk with my partner and i agreed with his claim that im trying to be too creative. Oviously i didnt feel good about doubling but i also felt i must do something to show partner i got a good hand, it would be easier for me to pass, and i guess easy is sometimes right.

You also might consider playing fit non-jumps here, where 4♣ shows clubs and diamonds, and is not forcing beyond the four level. I am not saying this is best or even necessarily good, just no one mentioned it.

Ben

I know you like these non-jump fit bids, but do you really suggest that they should be non-forcing? I'm somewhat suprised. You are willing to give up on a forcing bid that shows clubs, as well as a forcing fit-showing bid??

Well 4♣ if you use it as fit nonjump forces to just 4♦. Of course, since opener is forced to bid again, you can have a monster hand. That is 4♣ is forcing to 4 level in your known fit (in this case ♦'s. HAving said that, I will repeat that I don't play this as fit non-jump. But over three level preempts, I don't play traditional negative doubles either. For a lack of a better term, I use a "thrump" double (three notrump), so 4♣ by me shows that minor and the other major and is forcing. With just a minor I would double first and then bid 4♣ if necessary.

This treatment has advantages and disavantages.

Ben

[Flame]

HeartA, on Mar 14 2005, 02:44 PM, said:

My version of negative dbl is similar to 1NT without intervention:
1♠ - 1NT
2♥ - 3♣
shows a hand of 10 (or 11) hcp or less with real ♣ suit.  So does
1♠ - (2♦) - DBL
2♥ - 3♣.

The only difference is that 1NT could be 6 or 5 hcp, while DBL usually shows 8 to 11.

I thought this is standard because this is the way i was taught many many years ago.
So i guess you just pass with a good 6 card club suit and 8 hcp when partner open and RHO overcall.

[the hog]

Not necessarily.
You could play that 2NT is a form of Lebensohl, requesting that pd bid 3C. Now pass = the hand with long C and 3D = competitive with long Ds. An immediate 3C = t/f to D, invit+ etc.

Auken - von Arnim for example play this.

Ron

[mike777]

[quote name='Flame' date='Mar 14 2005, 07:05 PM'] [quote name='HeartA' date='Mar 14 2005, 02:44 PM'] .
So i guess you just pass with a good 6 card club suit and 8 hcp when partner open and RHO overcall. [/QUOTE]
This is what NFB are for 6 card suit and 7-12 HCP with light openers/