BBO Discussion Forums: Opening at the 4 level - BBO Discussion Forums

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Opening at the 4 level looking to improve our methods

#21Shugart23

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Posted 2015-April-07, 16:50

mikestar13, on 2015-April-07, 16:38, said:

I don't believe the ACBL has an official definition (the "I know it when I see it" test). The Official Encyclopedia of Bridge, by the ACBL, does not have status of regulation, but does have a definition: a suit which can be expected to lose no tricks opposite a stiff in partner's hand and might not lose any tricks opposite a void. The Encyclopedia does not define how much better than 50% probability constitutes "expected", but it is surely more than 51% and less than 100%. ACBL is deliciously vague. (Not so delicious when you have to play under their regs.)

Interesting ...if we use the 51 percent threshold as the test, does anyone know probability of losing 1 or more tricks holding AQJxxx or AQxxxxx ?
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#22Vampyr

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Posted 2015-April-07, 17:06

Shugart23, on 2015-April-07, 16:50, said:

Interesting ...if we use the 51 percent threshold as the test, does anyone know probability of losing 1 or more tricks holding AQJxxx or AQxxxxx ?

It doesn't matter, because these suits are, by any definition, not solid.

The Bridge Guys' definition is at the top of page 3.

EDIT: I believe that both of your suits will lose a trick 100% of the time opposite singleton.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#23Shugart23

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Posted 2015-April-07, 17:26

I think you are right, opposite a singleton, but on the other hand, I think I get 100% of the tricks if my partner has 6 cards in the trump suit opposite either holding :}

If Partner's singleton is a K, I dont lose a trick 100 percent of the time

This post has been edited by Shugart23: 2015-April-07, 17:35

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#24Shugart23

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Posted 2015-April-07, 17:36

or perhaps even a singleton 10
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#25Vampyr

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Posted 2015-April-07, 18:13

Shugart23, on 2015-April-07, 17:36, said:

or perhaps even a singleton 10

Whatever. Why are you pretending not to understand what is meant by a solid suit?

And did you also not notice that this "expected" thing refers to opposite a void?

Edit: oops opposite a void it is only maybe.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#26Shugart23

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Posted 2015-April-07, 18:23

In all seriousness, if I am going to use AWM's method, I want to have a clear conscious that it is GCC compliant. Seems like the Encyclopedia of Bridge is a reasonable authority......not really meaning to get into a pissing match with you
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#27nullve

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Posted 2020-November-02, 17:12

Probably not a new idea:

4 = preempt in either clubs or diamonds

(4 > 3, so not a brown sticker! )
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#28Zelandakh

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Posted 2020-November-03, 16:01

Nice necro! My choice is 3NT as a good 4m opening and 4m as a bad 4m opening. This keep the power of the natural preempt while offsetting its biggest drawback somewhat. For your next necro, we had a spate of threads on high level openings back in 2011-12 so just dig into those archives and have a ball!
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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#29johnworf

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Posted 2020-December-05, 18:52

Shugart23, on 2015-April-05, 06:42, said:

Playing Match points and Precision, we open at the 4 level using trick counts (which vary by who is red and who is white) Our 4 level opening bids (or immediate overcalls) tend to have no defensive values, no 4 card Major and generally be short of an opening 1 level bid...This sometimes causes a problem when opening 4H or 4S because partner can't get an accurate assessment as to high of a sacrifice might be in order (eg. why pre-empt 5 Hearts). Looking to improve our simple methods. I did find the following scheme, but I would like some advice on what might be best way to describe 4 level opening bids and partner responses. :

4C shows a hand with a long semi-solid Major with 3.5-4 Honor tricks OR a Minor suit with 2.5 -3 Honor tricks; no void
4H is a slam try
4S is a slam try
5C is to Play
6C shows first round control in 3 suits
5D is to Play
6D shows first round control in 3 suits
4D shows a hand with a long strong Major with 2.5-3 Honor tricks
4H shows no slam interest
Pass
4S is a correction to Spades
4S shows slam interest in Hearts
5C is a cue bid
5D is a cue bid
4H is natural and weak
4S is natural and weak
4NT shows long Clubs or Diamonds, strong, with at least one void
5C shows no slam interest
Pass
5D is a correction to Diamonds

As an aside, I don't think I want to use all the 4 level opening suit bids to strictly show Majors, although I have thought that maybe opening 3NT could show a Minor ( Our 3NT opening currently is undefined), which would then take care of that concern.

I also need to be GCC compliant

Thank you in advance for any suggestions.

I play namyats: https://www.stellar-....co.uk/namyats/
I hate going passed 3NT with a long minor so I like the idea of using 4C and 4D as showing better hearts and spades than if I bid 4H or 4S directly.
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#30Zelandakh

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Posted 2020-December-18, 14:42

johnworf, on 2020-December-05, 18:52, said:

I play namyats: https://www.stellar-....co.uk/namyats/
I hate going passed 3NT with a long minor so I like the idea of using 4C and 4D as showing better hearts and spades than if I bid 4H or 4S directly.

Namyats is often combined with a 3NT opening showing a 4 level preempt in a minor (as opposed to only a solid minor). One idea that has gained ground over the last 20ish years is to reverse these two so that 4m is natural and 3NT is the Namyats hand showing either major.
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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#31blackshoe

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Posted 2020-December-18, 14:49

Zelandakh, on 2020-December-18, 14:42, said:

Namyats is often combined with a 3NT opening showing a 4 level preempt in a minor (as opposed to only a solid minor). One idea that has gained ground over the last 20ish years is to reverse these two so that 4m is natural and 3NT is the Namyats hand showing either major.

Hm. How is that different to Kantar 3NT?
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