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Mild Partnership Disagreement Please help us settle this disagreement

#1 User is offline   Trump Echo 

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Posted 2015-March-14, 10:36

{comments}


IMPs.

I am playing South. Thinking about it now, maybe a better second round call by me would have been 5 Diamonds (an advance sacrifice), rather than just 4 Diamonds. But that's not our disagreement.

Our disagreement lies with my partner's (North's) double. Although I was prepared to bid 5 Diamonds, my partner doubled for penalty on the free bid after the ops bid game. I felt I should respect her double, so I passed. The ops took an overtrick and we went down 8 IMPs.

She says I should have taken her out of the double due to our superfit which compromises her Diamond quick tricks. I say she should have not counted more than one trick in Diamonds because of my supporting bid and should not have doubled with her hand. In my view, her double combined with her strong second bid without help showed me at least 3 tricks in other suits - and also I thought she might have some length in Hearts since I was void. So I felt I should respect her free-bid double and pass.

Opinions please?
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#2 User is offline   Bbradley62 

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Posted 2015-March-14, 11:05

View PostTrump Echo, on 2015-March-14, 10:36, said:



I don't see how partner can be blamed; you know:
  • you have an 11-card diamond fit (she only knows about 8)
  • you have a double fit (she only knows about 1 fit)
  • you have zero hope of a defensive trick in your hand.

She can't have all that many hearts when she has shown you 9 cards in the pointy suits. Your side also maybe got bamboozled because you certainly shouldn't expect opps to make 4 when they were willing to play in 2.
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#3 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2015-March-14, 11:07

p with a strong hand spades and diamonds could have much more easily begun with x vs 3d (since they can convert your 3c bid to 3d). Their bidding 3d means they are making more of a competitive bid rather than one based on power. That information alone should be enough for you to pull the x. On top of that how can your partner possibly imagine your 4d bid was based on a monstrously huge trump fit and zero power? Sure its possible but how likely is it (not very). Partner's x offers an opinion based on the bidding. There is no reason to assume p has made the correct decision when your hand is so much more distributional and powerless than your p might expect for a 4d bid.

Bid 5d mainly because you have strong reason to believe 4h will make and if p subsequently doubles 5h they have been forewarned and any x they offer is no longer your fault (ie do not again pull if p x 5h). Another consideration--if p really has the quick tricks available to set 4h do you not think 5d will have an excellent chance to make?--just a thought. Good auction until the pass of 4h x keep up the good work.
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#4 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2015-March-14, 11:49

I would like to back up a bit. Are you playing 5-card majors or 5-card spades? If so, then your initial pass is very strange.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#5 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2015-March-17, 08:55

I agree with your initial pass over 2 . You don't really know much about partner's hand. If partner has a very minimum opener, even 2 may be too high despite your distribution. If partner has more, partner may bid on thinking you have some points and again get too high. By passing, you allow yourself to potentially raise later in the auction and know partner will not expect much in your hand beyond the fit.

At your second chance to bid, the situation is entirely different. Partner has bid and RHO has bid 3 . Several things follow from these actions. So it's never wrong to think through the implications of the auction so far -- both the things bid and not bid.

First of all, partner by bidding 3 has shown at least 4 s and 5 s. You have a double fit of at least 8 s and 11 s. If your side has at least 19 cards in two suits, it follows that your side can't have more than 7 cards in the other two suits. That leaves the opponents to have 19+ cards in those two suits. Even if those two suits break as evenly as possible, the opponents have to have at least a 10 card fit in one of them. It also tells you that the hand is likely very distributional. Distributional hands tend to have more total tricks in them than flat hands. Additionally, double fit hands also tend to take a lot of tricks.

Second, RHO has bid 3 all by himself/herself. That should indicate either a solid 6 card or very good 7 card or longer suit minimum probably with some extra feature that makes 3 close to making. RHO's partner hasn't raised and your hand hasn't bid. There's no sense of where all the values in the hand lie. So RHO has to be looking at something that assures that the bid isn't stepping into a pile of bad stuff, especially at IMPs.

Finally, if you apply the LOTT based on the above, it says that there are at least 21 total tricks in this hand. Even if it's off a trick or so, it still favors bidding 5 .

I heartily agree with your rethink that 5 might have been a better bid at your second opportunity to speak. Part of good IMP play is to put the opponents to the test of whether to bid on or defend.

But with the actual auction, after partner doubles 4 , you shouldn't sit for it.

Partner doesn't know much about your hand other than you have a fit and some values. OTOH, you know a lot about the hand that partner doesn't know. By having an 11 card fit, the opponents have at most 2 cards in the suit. They are at best 1-1 in , so you have no more than 1 trick on defense. Likewise, in s, the opponents have no more than 5 of them. Again, the best break that could be expected is 3-2, so the most tricks that you can get in s are 2. That still requires an additional trick in s or s to beat the contract. But that's only with assuming the best possible breaks. If partner has extra cards in either suit or the opponent's cards don't break as well, 4 is likely to make even with a trick in one of their suits.

Here the ability to beat 4 is enough in doubt to follow the old IMP adage: "When in doubt, bid one more." So, bidding 5 is right, even if it doesn't work out.
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#6 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2015-March-17, 09:17

I agree with the pass over 2. Your hand isn't quite good enough to raise spades, especially since partner will play you for some hcp which you don't have. A trump lead would really weaken your hand.

I think 5 at your second turn is clear, and I wouldn't be seeing it as 'an advance sacrifice' but as a two-way shot....either we make or it is a good save.

As for the final pass, I really don't like it at all.

You argue that partner might have had longer hearts. Indeed, he might have....but take another look at your hand and think about what his having longer hearts means about his club holding. While you are focused on how many defensive tricks you expect him to hold outside of spades and diamonds, (and I think you are wrong about that), what you should be thinking is how few losers you have in those suits. Give him 3 hearts. He is either 5=3=4=1 or 5=3=5=0, and you have at most 1 loser in the rounded suits.

AQJxx KJx AKxxx void......cold for slam, while 4H requires very little to make the other way. Not that I am suggesting he has that hand, nor any other specific hand. What you do know is that he has 9+ cards in spades and diamonds, and you have 10 yourself. You also know that he rates to hold much of his hcp in those suits, and any honours he has in hearts are in front of the big heart hand, and any club card he has is stiff. To expect him to hold more than 1 trick in those suits is silly.

Btw, having bid 5, we may not have ended the auction. I don't understand LHO's pass of 2 as it is, but for him to pass 5 would be nuts. Now the question is whether your partner could stand to pass 5.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#7 User is offline   neilkaz 

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Posted 2015-March-17, 11:47

The 4 is awful! Certainly now with at least 11 cards in the pointed suits and no defense 5should be bid.

PD thought that South had a few HCP and fewer D's for 4and X'd based on his high cards. Now south must realize that his 4bid distorted the picture and pull to 5.

East has show a good playing hand and good suit with 3 being freely bid. Of course west should raise the initial O/C, but he didn't, but finally woke up and bid 4 perhaps even thinking he was pushed there by that bad 4bid.

100% blame to south.
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#8 User is offline   lackeman 

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Posted 2015-March-17, 12:26

here u should bid. 4spades i think Will be slightley more often. Since u have no heart partner vill have probably 1or 2clubs. Often home in 4spades or 5d and sometimes slam is making.
Sometimes down but then they often do 4hx.
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