[Rain]

Going to express personal opinion here. Currently, apart from acbl games with possibility of masterpoints, I can't see any other tourney offering enough rewards to tempt me. Some of the other pay tourneys offer $$ for winners, that looks like a good idea, but $$ itself is not a good incentive to promote loyalty. An example is how corporations are focusing on benefits instead of salaries (to a reasonable extent) in order to encourage loyalty to company.

This thread may help those wishing to be pay tourney directors by giving them ideas in rewards. I welcome idea contribution. I have no personal wish to direct any pay tourney in the near future, too much hassle. =)

1) Tie up with your local league to offer some sort of real life masterpoints.

2) The idea I've been thinking of most--frequent flier miles. I've even done a preliminary examination of this, looks like a great idea for anyone who's interested. (Or even BBO itself if fred/uday/sheri like the idea =) )

3) Prizes like a choice of e-certificates. Anything that is transferrable online is a good idea, as you don't want to ship your prizes halfway around the world.

4) Create your own prize, like a newsletter or something.

Anyone else has any idea? Here's to better prizes and a slice of rain's bbo$ =)

[Walddk]

I think there is a limit as to how much you can and should offer prizewise when you charge a ridiculously small fee. As it is now it costs you ONE US Dollar to be entertained for 90-120 minutes.

Where in real life can you get that? Nowhere, at least not in the countries I usually compare Denmark to.

Remember that the organisers, reasonably of course, pay a certain % of the revenue to Bridge Base. What I do not understand is that in some tourneys they let *Stars* play for free. Why is that? To attract more customers to tourneys perhaps. I think it's unreasonable, and if I am ever going to play in a pay tourney, I will insist on paying the $1 myself.

Finally I would like to be constructive. When Rain suggests different kinds of incitaments to get more people to play in those tourneys, I suggest that the *Stars* who are already privileged by being world class/expert players offer some of their time and play with a winner.

I realise that you can't get all the *Stars* you would have wanted to, but I am certain that a fair amount would be willing to do this if that could help BBO making money. I hereby promise (for all it's worth), time permitting of course, not to let any organiser down if asked.

Roland

[inquiry]

Stephen Pickett has been trying out free tourneys with a "prize" of a week free access to his online bridgebrowser database. I guess the value of a week of unlimited access is probably 5 dollars or so (someone will have to look up the cost per month and divide I guess). If these tourneys are well received, and with fred/uday's approval of course, he is considering pay tourneys as well, with the prize two months or longer free access to the winners, maybe shorter access for the runner's up.

I think this fits nicely into rain's idea of an online prize of some value. Of course, my understanding is access times when overseas to this database is not so great. It is blindingly fast on my internet2, fiber optic system, but very slow on my dial up.

More ideas like this for tourneys (even if this works or not) are surely needed. Maybe name tourneys after a corporate sponser and have them provide some nominal prize?

ben

[Rain]

My kind of reward is frequent miles. If a tourney gives out ff miles, I would be willing to pay more than $1, depending on the reward structure. I know more about ff miles but don't feel like posting. Just go to the various airlines website if any qualified TD is interested and have a look =)

sfbp 's bridgebrowser prize is something I will join a pay tourney for. Currently its just free tourney though, and it currently doesn't feel like a pay tourney structure because he's goal is probably to advertise bbr. (Nice tool, mission accomplished =) ) Also, since its a free tourney, it doesn't generate revenue for bbo, hehe

=)

[hrothgar]

Rain, on Mar 10 2005, 12:11 AM, said:

My kind of reward is frequent miles. If a tourney gives out ff miles, I would be willing to pay more than $1, depending on the reward structure.  I know more about ff miles but don't feel like posting. Just go to the various airlines website if any qualified TD is interested and have a look =)

sfbp 's bridgebrowser prize is something I will join a pay tourney for.  Currently its just free tourney though, and it currently doesn't feel like a pay tourney structure because he's goal is probably to advertise bbr. (Nice tool, mission accomplished =) )  Also, since its a free tourney, it doesn't generate revenue for bbo, hehe

=)

ummm... I recognize that this post is more than a bit cynical, however, how many frequent flier miles are you going to get for a $1 tournament?

More significantly, is the marginal cost of integrating into an airlines frequent flier program worth the margin revenue generated by giving BBO participants 1 frequent flier mile?

[uday]

I think prizes are a bad idea. I wish we could think of a better way for the pay tourneys to distinguish themselves from one another.

[Rain]

I don't think distinguishing each tourney from the other is something we need to worry about. In accordance with the free market principle, this would be something each tourney organiser needs to think up. So rewards will be up to them. The purpose of this thread is to help anyone interested think up ideas on how to generate pay tourney rewards, with the ultimate aim of increasing market share.

It is easy to buy miles and award them. I've done the sums and this will be a nice revenue generater for interested TDs. 5-10 miles per $2 entry sounds reasonable to me. (ie, this is what I'm willing to pay.) Winners can also win some sort of jackpot. Nice eh. However, I also prefer TDs who know the rules and have some experience for $2 an entry. (ie, good quality TDs)

I just read something Hrothgar wrote in Bridgeworld in 2001 (I think). BBO business model seems to be closely modeled after what he suggested.

------------
Any other suggestion for prizes? Nothing is for free in this world (except for the posts in this thread which will offer ideas for free!) I think its a good idea for those who expect to earn some income directing tourneys to offer more. Innovate! Advertise! If bbo masterpoints is your only incentive for tourney-goers...............

[luke warm]

i'm kinda against prize money, but that's just an opinion... i love roland's idea of winners (and even place and/or show) "winning" a round with a world class player in a later tourney

[sceptic]

I think, to distinguish pay tourneys all you can offer (if prizes are not an option) is the standard of directorship and in the ACBL's case master points.

It would be nice to think that some organisation like the ACBL could package up the hands and present them as lin file or whatever to all participants with, the best contract possible or the most sensible way of bidding the hands, for this they may be able to increase revenue as it may attract more players or may generate more revenue by justifying $2+ a tourney. (may be it is worth testing a few tourneys out using this format)

Another may be instructional tourneys (ABCL again as they appear to have huge resources) could do a session after the tourney (like some of the BIL teachers do) (I am sure there are a lot of advanced players that do not realise what they are missing from the sessions I have attended) the level of instruction could be higher than BIL perhaps, this would open it to a far greater audience and could be a good revenue generator for the tourney hosts and BBO.

There may be program changes required to look at, so only those that payed for the tourney are able to visit a selected chat room or teaching table, but Fred and Uday are geniuses and I am sure it iwould not take them long to do a new version that incorporates this feature hehehe.

I think air miles or things like that are not the way forward (sorry rain, they are only any good if you need to fly to singapore in a hurry), but the idea of playing with Roland or someone that good is quite appealing to me personally, as this is about the only place you are ever really likely to get the chance.

[sceptic]

I also think if I am to spend more cash on pay tourneys or be attracted to other pay tourneys than ACBL, themed tourneys would be quite good, the reward I would get would be ability to practice live my conventions etc etc, not the goulash type but hands construced to allow certain techniques to be played etc

[ochinko]

Walddk, on Mar 9 2005, 03:41 PM, said:

What I do not understand is that in some tourneys they let *Stars* play for free. Why is that? To attract more customers to tourneys perhaps. I think it's unreasonable, and if I am ever going to play in a pay tourney, I will insist on paying the $1 myself.

Strange, I find it completely reasonable for BBO to let the stars play without paying. Sure they lose your $1 but you will attract more $$ for them with your presence. If I was able to pay for play I'd certainly prefer a tourney with stars without caring whether they payed or not. Not only would I be able to brag about playing against Roland Wald, but I'd learn more from playing against masters than from playing against my peers.

Petko Boukov

[Walddk]

ochinko, on Mar 10 2005, 06:29 AM, said:

Walddk, on Mar 9 2005, 03:41 PM, said:

What I do not understand is that in some tourneys they let *Stars* play for free. Why is that? To attract more customers to tourneys perhaps. I think it's unreasonable, and if I am ever going to play in a pay tourney, I will insist on paying the $1 myself.

Strange, I find it completely reasonable for BBO to let the stars play without paying. Sure they lose your $1 but you will attract more $$ for them with your presence. If I was able to pay for play I'd certainly prefer a tourney with stars without caring whether they payed or not. Not only would I be able to brag about playing against Roland Wald, but I'd learn more from playing against masters than playing against my peers.

Petko Boukov

I don't disagree Petko, but my point is that paying $1 shouldn't keep the *Stars* away from the tourneys. Time, not money, is an issue for most I think.

Whether it will be easy to attract *Stars* or not I have no way of knowing. I can only speak for myself: I will be happy to play if (1) It generates money for BBO, and (2) Other players will enjoy playing with or against me.

I am certain that others feel the same way. *Stars* are usually not as (excuse me) snooty as some may think. If some are, they should read my signature carefully, over and over again until they understand the message.

Roland

[Brandal]

ochinko, on Mar 10 2005, 06:29 AM, said:

Walddk, on Mar 9 2005, 03:41 PM, said:

What I do not understand is that in some tourneys they let *Stars* play for free. Why is that? To attract more customers to tourneys perhaps. I think it's unreasonable, and if I am ever going to play in a pay tourney, I will insist on paying the $1 myself.

Strange, I find it completely reasonable for BBO to let the stars play without paying. Sure they lose your $1 but you will attract more $$ for them with your presence. If I was able to pay for play I'd certainly prefer a tourney with stars without caring whether they payed or not. Not only would I be able to brag about playing against Roland Wald, but I'd learn more from playing against masters than from playing against my peers.

Petko Boukov

How about non-stars paying to play with the star,
paying for both members of partnership?

That way,instant reward,and no revenueloss?

Stars could enter partnership desk and be invited
by players,offering to pay for both,sounds like
an idea to me.

I'm sure non star players would be more inclined
to enter such tournaments,if they're sure to play
with a star player,than if only the top 3 winners
would get the honours......

[Walddk]

Brandal, on Mar 10 2005, 07:15 AM, said:

How about non-stars paying to play with the star,
paying for both members of partnership?

That way,instant reward,and no revenueloss?

Stars could enter partnership desk and be invited
by players,offering to pay for both,sounds like
an idea to me.

I'm sure non star players would be more inclined
to enter such tournaments,if they're sure to play
with a star player,than if only the top 3 winners
would get the honours......

I like your suggestion Brendal. This is a guess, but I think most beginners, intermediates and advanced players will be reluctant to invite a *Star*, because they don't like the idea of being turned down. No one likes defeats, and some will see this as such if the answer is "No thanks".

Is it just my imagination?

Roland

[ochinko]

Walddk, on Mar 10 2005, 06:53 AM, said:

ochinko, on Mar 10 2005, 06:29 AM, said:

Walddk, on Mar 9 2005, 03:41 PM, said:

What I do not understand is that in some tourneys they let *Stars* play for free. Why is that? To attract more customers to tourneys perhaps. I think it's unreasonable, and if I am ever going to play in a pay tourney, I will insist on paying the $1 myself.

Strange, I find it completely reasonable for BBO to let the stars play without paying. Sure they lose your $1 but you will attract more $$ for them with your presence. If I was able to pay for play I'd certainly prefer a tourney with stars without caring whether they payed or not. Not only would I be able to brag about playing against Roland Wald, but I'd learn more from playing against masters than playing against my peers.

Petko Boukov

I don't disagree Petko, but my point is that paying $1 shouldn't keep the *Stars* away from the tourneys. Time, not money, is an issue for most I think.

Whether it will be easy to attract *Stars* or not I have no way of knowing. I can only speak for myself: I will be happy to play if (1) It generates money for BBO, and (2) Other players will enjoy playing with or against me.

I am certain that others feel the same way. *Stars* are usually not as (excuse me) snooty as some may think. If some are, they should read my signature carefully, over and over again until they understand the message.

Roland

Well, I represent the majority of players, i.e. nonstars, so I should know better.

Seriously, I feel funny about arguing with you about matters that you are supposed to know much better than me, but your opinion is always welcomed.

It's not about being snooty (had to look for that one in the dictionary). It's just that many, if not most, of the stars are professional players accustomed to being payed for teaching and playing with inferior players. Requiring them to pay the same amount as intermediate players may put them off for purely psychological reasons, and all will suffer as a result - the BBO revenue, the intermidiate players skills, etc.

I am extremely grateful for any star that does pro bono teaching and plays with random players, but can't blame those whose income more or less depends on the same activities.

Petko

[Brandal]

Walddk, on Mar 10 2005, 07:25 AM, said:

I like your suggestion Brendal. This is a guess, but I think most beginners, intermediates and advanced players will be reluctant to invite a *Star*, because they don't like the idea of being turned down. No one likes defeats, and some will see this as such if the answer is "No thanks".

Is it just my imagination?

Roland

Very solid point,Roland,I'm afraid it's not your imagination.

I wouldn't dare asking a star player to play with me
"if my life depended on it".

However,I would be just as "intimidated" if I won a tournament
with a star I guess.....

If asking at the partnership desk "hey,Roland,wanna play with me?"
that way I could get a straight answer,a yes would be a bonus

If TD or host told me,"hey you just won a tourney with Roland"
I would think......."but does he consent?"

So maybe,for players who want to partner with a star,it would
after all be easier asking first?

[Walddk]

ochinko, on Mar 10 2005, 07:33 AM, said:

I am extremely grateful for any star that does pro bono teaching and plays with random players, but can't blame those whose income more or less depends on the same activities.

Petko

Excellent point Petko, and surely also one of the reasons why you can't tempt all *Stars* to play for free. Many contribute to the BBO community already by devoting some of their time as vugraph commentators - without pay!

I am privileged I suppose. I run a bridge centre with about 1,000 members, where I teach and direct. That's how I make my living. In my spare time I am happy to help at BBO without getting paid (vugraph, playing, teaching, directing). I realise that not many are in the same situation.

Roland