[Laird]

Hello All

Misho made an offer to discuss the advantages/ disadvantages of various bidding systems and I for one would like to take him up on it.
Would it be possible to structure the responses in the following manner so that key fact sheets could be produced for easy reference...

Bidding System....

Main Features

Advantages

Disadvantages

Other Notes



Bearing in mind that this is for the benefit of learners/ intermediates please keep the content simple to absorb.

May I suggest that a separate topic heading is used for each system chosen to avoid clutter and confusion. High level theoretical discussion should be avoided at this stage please.

eg Misho's Offer Part 1.... Acol
Part 2.... Polish Club
Part 3.... 2/1
Part 4.... Precision
Part 5.... what Misho uses?

Kind regards and thanks to Misho for making such an offer.
John

[JRG]

I consider myself a bit past Intermediate, but I would welcome a system discussion such as you describe. If it is kept to the level of beginners/intermediates, I think it would actually be more beneficial than if aimed at advanced players!!

Perhaps this is because I think having a general concept of other bidding systems is important and that it is easy to get bogged down in detail. If I were "expert", I might want to prepare detailed defenses against systems I am going to run up against, but I prefer the concept of having a general idea so I don't do "stupid" things in competition.

Also, a basic general idea of the opponents' bidding system means that defense (i.e. when playing a contract or defending) will be better.

John

[mishovnbg]

Hi friends, all comments and questions are welcome :.
[glow=red,2,300]Polish club[/glow]
I will begin with this system, because many polish players come to play at BBO.
Generally Polish club is like SAYC full - normal natural system.
Openings ( new version - WJ2000 ).
1CL: 3 way:
-weak NT: (11)12-14(15)
-5(4)+CL, natural with 15+hcp
-18+hcp, any
1DI: (11)-17(18)hcp, 5(4)+DI, unbalanced
1HE/SP: (11)-17(18)hcp, 5+HE/SP
1NT: 15-17hcp, balanced
2CL: 10-14hcp, 5+CL-4 major or 6+CL
2DI(Wilkosz): 6-11 hcp, 5+major-5+ any other suit, include other major
2HE/2SP: normal weak 2
2NT: 6-11hcp, 5+CL-5+DI

Main idea of system is to bid 1CL with weak NT hands, even with 2 cards in CL. Reason of it is over 1CL opening you have easy negative bid - 1DI (not very usefull for other purposes), unlike after 1DI opening.
You will not risk more opening 1CL/DI with 18-19 hcp and balanced hand to play at 3-2(3) fit too, because over 1CL opening your parner will bid at least 1DI negative. You also will play 1NT instead of 2NT with 20-21 hcp if your partner have 0-2 hcp.
Example:
1CL-1DI
1NT: 18-21 hcp, bal

Opening with weak 1 NT block opponent bidding, but block your partner bids too and also is risky for penalty dbl. Opening with 1CL with same hands allow you to play 1HE/SP contract if your partner is weak, unlike 1NT opening ( in vul same difference is wining ).
Example:
1CL-1DI
1HE/SP: 12-14hcp, bal, 4(3)+HE/SP

Answers - like SAYC full with inverted minor raises. Exception: 1HE/SP - 2NT: limit or better raise in major with at least 3 fit (like Jordan 2NT after dbl).
Rebids: - like SAYC full, but jump reverse is distributional, because of opening limit of 17 hcp maximum. Exception: 1HE/SP-2CL/DI/HE, 2 HE/SP: 14-hcp, dont prommise 6 in major!!!. Yes, rebid 2 in major show minimum only and dont show distribution or 6 major. Same way play natural systems bulgarian, french... may be all european, i am not sure. All other rebids show some kind of maximum, include 2NT rebid and minor raise.
One special rebid after 1CL opening and any 1 answer - 2DI odwrotka - show strong hand ( 3+ fit in responder major if exist) and ask partner for strength and length in answered major by steps. Normal answers:
1 step: 9-hcp, 4 major
2 step: 10+hcp, 4 major
3 step: 9-hcp, 5 major
4 step: 10+hcp, 5 major
....
Example:
1CL-1HE, 2DI(odwrotka)-?:
2HE: 9-hcp, 4HE
2SP: 10+hcp, 4HE
2NT: 9-hcp, 5HE
3CL: 10+hcp, 5HE
....

1DI special response to 1CL opening show 3 way bid:
- 0-6hcp, any -> rebid pass or non jump bid with 4-6 HCP
Example:
1CL-DI, 1SP-2CL: 4-11 hcp, 5+CL, not invite game
-7-11hcp, unbalanced without a 4+ major -> rebid 2 CL/DI natural with 8-hcp, 3CL/DI natural with 9-11 hcp and artifical jump rebid of 2SP 8-11 hcp with 5+-4+ in minors.
Example:
1CL-DI, 1SP-3CL: 9-11hcp, 6+CL, invite game, but need serious fill in CL.
-17+hcp,bal, without a 4+ major -> rebid 2NT
Example:
1CL-DI, 1SP-2NT: 17+hcp,bal, without a 4+ major , slam interest

Advantages:
1. 1CL opening ( some of it i was described obove ) - with strong hands is much better to bid than after 2CL opening, because your partner already give you some information by answer and you are still at low level.
2. Relative limited openings (12-17)
- lack of 3 zone of HCP(18-21) make possible to bid jump reverses ONLY with clear distribution like 5-5 or 6-4 and allow to reach distributional games and slams.
- Free for tactical and bluff bids, because opener will raise to 4 only wit very wild distribution.
- More easy to handle opponents intervention and pre-empts, because limited openings give you more chances to make right decision.
3. Natural 1DI opening, normally with 5 cards and unbalanced hand include this suit nicely in battle.
4. Precision 2CL have same effect like 1DI.
5. 2DI+2NT structure cover all 2 suited hands.

Disadvantages and defence:
1. 1CL opening include lot of hands and cannot be precise after opponent intervention. You can use against it one of
many overcall stuctures invented against 1CL precision opening and undisciplined pre-empts. Difference is that you cant ( or at least not good ) bid simple overcalls only to disturb 1CL opening, your bids must have constructive meaning too, because most often 1CL show weak NT and game still may be in your line. Complex overcall structure can include both distrib only and constructive overcalls(Bocchi-Duboin).
2. 2DI Wikosza are like 2DI multi and you can use aginst it same defence. Main disadvantage of this opening is unlike 2DI multi responder must bid his BETTER major and can miss game with unexpected fit in major.

Thats all bridge folks . I havent a claim on absolute truth, if it exist. I just try to help, friends.

Misho

[Dan_Neill]

Hi all,
The whole WJ2000 system in English can be found at
http://www.geocities.com/daniel_neill_2000.../sys/index.html

Thanks,
Dan

[the hog]

Mike Mardsich's web site has been off line for some time, anyone know why?

Pls continue Misho - interesting views.

2D odwrotka

Misho, Matula's book has a whole different and more complicated relay structure of 2DI odwrotka, have you looked at this?

I actually think PC is an excellent system. My only criticism is that I believe it is better to play transfer responses to 1C as the Italians do in their systems - even with a 0 count.

[csdenmark]

Hi Ron!

To this:

Quote

I actually think PC is an excellent system. My only criticism is that I believe it is better to play transfer responses to 1C as the Italians do in their systems - even with a 0 count.

Here the response structure over 1C open for 4 great italian bridge systems. None of these are using transfer-response.

Roman Club: Responses showing strength and distribution
Leghorn Diam: Control responses
Blue Team: Control responses
Quadri Italia: Control responses

Yours Claus - csdenmark

[Laird]

Thanks Misho and others for responding....

What an excellent beginning...I now realise how I got mugged by a pair of Polish ''players''....I was like a lamb amongst wolves. 2D odwrotka (Grrrrr :-) )
Imagine the bidding sequence....

1c (p) 1h (1s)
2d (p) 2h (2s)........ smiles from rho
X (p) (p) (p)......... smiles from Lho

800 points down.... unrestricted glee from opps.

However no self alert was extended (huh)

Forewarned is forearmed they say!

Perhaps we should also include a topic on bridge ethics too somewhere in this section.
Also please continue to keep in mind the level of this posting area.

John:-)

[hrothgar]

Hi John

There are a couple issues here:

Issue one is whether the bids in question should have been alerted:
I believe that the 1C, 1H, and 2D all should have been self alerted.

Be this as it may, even if the opposing pair was playing standard, rebidding Spades in this auction is asking for trouble.

LHO has just reversed. There is a very strong hand sitting over you.
RHO has shown 6+ HCP
The opponents don't seem to have a fit
Your partner has denied interest in Spades
You are vulnerable

I'm sure that there must be some kind of hand that would tempt me to rebid 2S in this auction, but at the moment, it is eluding me.

[Laird]

Hi Richard

Yes I agree... but Ron warned me that playing against Polish system can be frustrating.... and I guess I still fail to respond to what my head tells me is foolish and let my emotions take over

Kind regards
John

[hrothgar]

I also like Polish Club.
I think that it is a well thought out system [much better than SAYC]

The auction that people real want to give some thought to is

1C - 1D
1H

Opener's 1H rebid typically shows a minimum strength balanced hand with 3+ Hearts.
When competing against a pair playing Polish Club, its good to have some understandings about what bids mean in this auction.

In partiuclar, you need to understand that

(a) 1H is non-forcing
( The Initial 1D response to the Polish Club opening often conceals certain strong hand types.

[the hog]

Here the response structure over 1C open for 4 great italian bridge systems. None of these are using transfer-response.

Roman Club: Responses showing strength and distribution
Leghorn Diam: Control responses
Blue Team: Control responses
Quadri Italia: Control responses

I am afraid to say that control showing responses are terribly dated and are NOT used in modern Italian systems eg Nightmare, or the Bocchi-Duboin system, or that used by Versacce. Also Garozzo totally rewrote Blue Team Club for the Italian Junior team and abandoned control showing responses. In his words "That is how we did it in the old days, now we know it is not the best method." Anyway that is getting off the thread here.

[Laird]

Quote :The Initial 1D response to the Polish Club opening often conceals certain strong hand types.

Hi Richard
Is this another example of withholding information which should be available to the opposition.... I guess the best way to compete against this system is to learn it... but then where does it end.
This posting I was hoping would lead to a set of bare bones summaries or overviews of a few systems which could then be referred to during online play so that the playing field can be levelled somewhat.

John

[Codo]

Hi John,

maybe you bother a little too much about withold informations.
I think, it should be enough at online-bridge to alert 1 Diamond with something like: Usually 0-7.
If you need further informations, you should ask.

First: 1 Diamond is seldom played as a simple negative. Here where I live (just in Polands neighborhood..) they have several opinions, what is the best use for this bid.
But do you really always need all informations, what may be? I doubt that.

Second: Assume that you open 1 Club in SAYC f.E. and you are asked about it. I would answer: 3+ clubs, 11-21 HCPs. And you?

I won`t go into the details, f.E., that it could not be 15-17 balanced, nor 20-21 balanced, 5 spades only if...etc. Just if they ask me....
But my pd, who knows the system, will know all these "details".
Would you complain about withholding informations?
I won´t.

But I think, that we lost the theme again. Maybe ethics, special boards and even ups and downs of this system should be discussed, but this elsewhere should be elsewhere.
So that this sthreat maybe just gets back to a threat about a system.

Kind Regards

Roland

[flytoox]

Thanks all for the great discussion from which i learn a lot. Does anyone want to discuss the advantage and disadvantages of Precision? I wonder if today's precision is much different from CCWei's style. I used to play precision. The problem with precision is that when Opp intrude and pd has a weak hand and your hand is not strong enough like 2c opening in standard. So in this case you will be in a bad position without showing your suit at the 1st round. Can anyone tell me what is the countermeasure over opp's intervene?

[Laird]

Hello Misho and all

"You will not risk more opening 1CL/DI with 18-19 hcp and balanced hand to play at 3-2(3) fit too, because over 1CL opening your parner will bid at least 1DI negative. You also will play 1NT instead of 2NT with 20-21 hcp if your partner have 0-2 hcp.
Example:
1CL-1DI
1NT: 18-21 hcp, bal

Opening with weak 1 NT block opponent bidding, but block your partner bids too and also is risky for penalty dbl. Opening with 1CL with same hands allow you to play 1HE/SP contract if your partner is weak, unlike 1NT opening ( in vul same difference is wining )."

As I try to play Acol with 12-14 nt I can see an immediate benefit here with this system 1!c opener a lot less risky and apparently more constructive...yet the preemptive aspects of weak nt seem lost? In Acol the redouble of the double for emergency take out is available?

kind regards
John

[csdenmark]

Quote

Thanks all for the great discussion from which i learn a lot. Does anyone want to discuss the advantage and disadvantages of Precision? I wonder if today's precision is much different from CCWei's style. I used to play precision. The problem with precision is that when Opp intrude and pd has a weak hand and your hand is not strong enough like 2c opening in standard. So in this case you will be in a bad position without showing your suit at the 1st round. Can anyone tell me what is the countermeasure over opp's intervene?

"Precision and Superprecision bidding" by Giorgio Belladonna and Benito Garozzo, page 157-161.

Summary here:
1C-DBL
Pass=0-5HcP
1D=6-7HcP
Suit=8-13HcP,5+cd
RDBL=8-13HcP,bal
1NT=14+HcP
3'/4'=preempt

1C-overcall(1-force)
Pass=0-6HcP
DBL=7+HcP,0-2 Ctrl
1HS=8+HcP,5+cd
1NT=3 Ctrl,stop opps
2C=3 Ctrl, No stop
2D=4 Ctrl
2HS=3-7HcP,6cd,2 topH
2NT=5+ Ctrl
3CD=6cd,K+Q or A+Q
3HS=7cd,K+Q
3NT=Solid 6-7cd + side control

1C-overcall(2-force)
Pass=0-6HcP
DBL=7+HcP,0-2 Ctrl
2DHS=3-7HcP,6cd,2 topH
2NT=3 Ctrl incl stop or 4 Ctrl no stop
3CDHS=7cd,K+Q
3NT=Solid 6-7cd + side control
Cue=5+ Ctrl

Yours Claus - csdenmark

[pbleighton]

Re- Precision

I've been playing it a little. An experienced Precision player at my club says that using a strong NT (she actually uses 16-18, most use 15-17) takes the weakest bids out of the 1C opening, and makes rebidding and penalty doubling easier. She says that she doubles for penalties a lot.

[hrothgar]

Precision with a 16-18 HCP NT?
Not my cup of tea.

The point of playing a strong club is NOT getting good boards when you open 1C.
Rather, the goal should be to achieve a good result when you open something OTHER than 1C.

The Precision style 1D opening is bad enough without forcing it to show
10-15 HCP balanced.

[hrothgar]

I'll make one last Polish CLub note:

From my perspective, the best material on Polish Club is (was) Matula's book.
Well written, well organized, with lots of examples.

Unfortunately, the primary verison of Polish Club being played now seems to be WJ2000, which I haven't taken the time to study extensively.